I’m glad I stumbled across this while searching for Creative Zen Vision W info. Good video. I don’t suppose you could explain, in layman terms, what would be the general difference between the Damascus process described in the video vs. the folding that Japanese sword smiths used for their rather famous blades. I am not a blade smith myself but do have a few combat blades about and hope to make my own sword one day.

Scotty,

That is a great question. Essentially we’re talking about the same thing when we talk about ancient Japanese sword steel, ancient Damascus Wootz steel, and modern folded Damascus. The only difference is really in the exactness of the material composition.

In ancient times, they had to use the trial and error method over a period of decades or centuries to develop sources for the raw materials for the steel. They didn’t know it then, but they were looking for about 99% iron plus 1% carbon to make a strong blade.

Adding other trace materials to the mix will change the characteristics of the steel by adding rust resistance, toughness, or other things we look for. Of course, too much or too little of anything and you’ve got a crappy blade.

Now days, we just call up our specialty steel supplier and order a few pieces of 1095 high-carbon steel and a few pieces of 15N20 stainless, and we’ve got the perfect mix without all the searching and digging.

The heating, forging and folding processes used are the same as they have been for 1,700 years. Of course now we have power hammers instead of apprentices to beat the steel, and we use gas forges instead of coal.

Hope that answers your question. If you have an interest in Bladesmithing you may want to subscribe for updates as I’ll be adding more videos and other articles pretty soon.

John

Very interesting, thanks. The narrator also mentioned the two types of steel he used and I think they’re the same as you mention above. However, in the video he appeared to have 6 or 7 pieces of differently colored steel welded together. Perhaps it was just the lighting on the cut.

It would be interesting to know if the methodology you describe evolved in parallel or if there was some common seed that both European and far eastern branches came from.

Thanks for your answer!

You’ve got good eyes Scotty. He did indeed have several different pieces of steel welded together in his initial stack. We call this a “billet”.

What he has done is taken the two different types of steel, one plain and one with chromium, and has stacked them together in an alternating stack. The manner in which the different types of steel are stacked and how they are folded during forging will determine the outcome of the pattern on the steel.

It appears that Daniel started with 7 layers of alternating pieces. Once he forge welds these into a single billet he will then draw it out on the power hammer. This consists of squashing it down to about 1/2 the height and twice the length. He then cuts it in half and fold it over it’s self.

When it is folded over, the 7 layers become 14 layers. We typically repeat this process until the steel has around 300 layers. In this case he will probably go to either 224 layers or 448 (7,14,28,56,112,224,448). The more layers the finer the detail in the Damascus, but if you keep going too long you eventually mash it all up into basically a new hybrid piece of steel and you can’t see any delineation.

In ancient times the patterns in the Damascus were caused by impurities in the steel. They didn’t set out to do this on purpose, it just happened. Today we control the patterns very closely and they mostly serve a decorative purpose.

As far as I know, the Eastern and Western processes formed independantly. Damascus steel was first produced around 300 a.d. and it was unique throughout the world for most of modern history. Japanese swords are much newer and rarely contain actual Damascus patterns. Instead what they contain are quench lines as a result of a differential hardening technique developed by the Japanese.

John

Very exciting stuff. Really glad I found your site. I feel like going out and renting some time on a forge :D

hey guys,

glad you like the video… I actually wasn’t aware that it had spread so far,…

the different colors of the steel pieces are just made by the creative use of a marking-pen… this way I guess it was easier for the video-viewers, especially for someone who has never made damascus befor, to actualy realize that the billet consists of different steels.

any questions… feel free to mail me (see http://www.ferrum.cc)

Daniel

Daniel,

Thanks for checking in. It’s a great video you put together and I’m glad you did it so I don’t have to.:-)

Excellent idea on using the marker to allow people to better see the different layers. And those are some beautiful blades you’re forging over there!

If you ever decide to take a trip to the US let me know and we can arrange to introduce you to the Bladesmithing scene here. I’m in Dallas, TX but the center of the Bladesmithing world is in Arkansas about 4 hours drive from my home.

Take care,

John

I enjoyed the video and ferrum.cc pages. I’d like to know if there are any more knives on sale or is it always a custom made order? What would be the price range for Your knives? Thanks.

CS,

I’m not sure if you are asking me about the price range for my knives, or Daniel’s? I’m guessing you are asking me since Daniel has some on his Web site.

Mine range from $300-$1,000 depending on complexity, and yes they are always custom made to order. Each one takes me between 20-80 hours of manual labor, so the hourly rate still sucks. I have a 1 year wait list as well.

John

my stuff… well it’s always custom made… sometimes I make my own designs and put those out for sale on the website too…

price range is within 300$ to 2500$ dependeing on materials, complexity, size…

Delivery times range from a few days up to a few month…

shoot me an email (gentile@ferrum.cc)… if you want to know more ;)

Daniel

Thanks John for clarifying the issue. I was asking about Daniel’s knives, but appreciate the info on yours too. Thanks for the link, I’ll check your knives as well.
CS

Daniel what a great video im in Australia and am keenly looking for an oppertunity to get into bladesmithing. Down there are not many if at all apprenticships. Would love to here more about it. Just one question when you welded the billet together does that have any influence on the out come of the blade? I see you stick welded the layers together, if there are any impurites in the weld would this also effect the desired finish?

Thanks again Joel

Wootz is completely different from pattern welded steel, wootz is a cast dedridic steel with alloy banding.

Jared,

I don’t think it’s any more accurate to state that wootz is “completely” different from pattern welded steel than it is to state that it is “essentially the same”. For the layperson I would argue that the distinguishing characteristic of both is its hybrid nature, as opposed to plain old boring steel.

In either case the end result is patterned steel whose main feature is a lack of consistancy throughout the material.

We could also spend all day arguing about how ancient wootz was actually made – because there is no recorded evidence of it’s method of manufacture; and then we could spend another day arguing how inferior it is to modern steel production methodology. But at the end of the day whether you start with ancient wootz, or you start with a modern billet of 1095 and 15N20, you still have to draw it out and forge it. And the only thing people care about today is the pattern on the blade.

John

I’m putting together my own bladesmithing shop in my backyard, and i have everything i need except for fuel for the forge. It is a coal/coke forge, and I have had trouble finding a provider for fuel in my area. I live in the middle of Indiana, USA. Would you know of any places I could look for cheap shipping or local providers? Thanks!

Hi all,

Like Scotty I found this page when searching on info re the Vision W. I have made several knives in the past but haven’t had the time in a few years to keep it up. I recently took a class from Steve Rollert (Dove Knives) on making Dmaascus. We made several billits and I even made one that should prove really exciting to grind, it was collapsed so the pattern is very striking. I building a shop in preperation for retirement in 4-5 years and hope to make knives and turn wood to keep me out of trouble.

Dan

im just a intermediate blacksmith doing it casually for a few years now. ive always worked in high heat like orange at least, but i notice that i get craters in the steel after finishing even. i use bituminous coal forge and i dont know what causes the craters. do you?

i mean, he works at such a high heat constantly. how does that not have the same effects on the steel that i get?

DG,

First of all, you are correct to forge at least at an orange heat. Orange is the minimum, and you really want yellow while hitting the steel. Anything cooler will cause stress fractures in the steel because it simply isn’t forging temperature.

When you describe the results as having “craters” I’m not 100% certain we’re using the same terminology so I’ll provide two possible reasons for what you are seeing:

If you are seeing “pits” in the steel it is likely because you are heating it too much before working it. If you leave the steel in the fire until it gets white hot you are actually burning it. There is a very fine range within which you must remove the steel and get to work on it. This is why I vastly prefer a gas forge. It’s much easier to keep the steel in the proper range – orange to yellow.
If you are seeing a lot of “gashes” in the steel after forging, this is because you are hitting it with glancing blows of the hammer and the edge of the hammer is leaving dents. Basically you just need to hit the face a little more squarely and/or replace your hammer.

Hope that helps. Please give me more detail if I didn’t answer your question.

John

hello all

I want to ask about the etching process.

thanks

Dear Sir,

I need the complete etching process and chemical names. ..
Thanks and awaiting your reply.

Thanks
Tanveer

Dear jhon,

Actually this PCB etchant is not easily available in pakistan.

We normally use mixture of NaOH, CuSO4 and water.
Then boil the liquid and put the knife in the boiling liquid for about 5 to 6 hours.

but this takes a lots of time so i am searching for some easy and fast procedure for etching.

thanks

Bilal saroya

Bilal,

I was once in pakistan (travelled from the bordercrossing of china, down to lahore, beautiful country…)… there were many automotive (car) repair shops… small ones…
car battery acid can be used and you should have no problem getting them…
these days in western europe only few car batteries are left which use real acid… but for old cars and old batteries shops still provide refill acid once in a while…

try that or… Ferric Chloride (Fe3Cl) should be available from electronic board manufacturers (I guess in islamabad that should be no problem to find).

or sulphuric acid can be used…

with all acids, please take great care when working… the fumes can cause serious lung and breathing injuries…

also if you have to dillute acids, always first pour in water THEN acid … never add water to acid!

daniel

thanks for your help

I should try these acids.

thanks again

Bilal saroya

dear Bilal,
you can also use hot vinegar, or even citric juice for the etching. i think that just about any acid will give you some etching on the blade. the time it takes to get the deepness of the pattern just depends on how strong the acid is, and of course the type of steel you are using.

just made my first damascus knife a couple of days ago, and we tried everything for the etching (tests), including HCl, vinegar, battery acid, and some others that wernt so great. so far the vinigar wins becuase its cheap, non toxic, and it etches fairly well.

hey,
i have a question, and im fairly new in this field so its probably pretty basic. what is the usual method, in terms of grinding, for taking the finished billet and making the knife come out of it. so far we’ve only been using an angle grinder, with either normal grinding discs or the sand papery kind, and that sort of works but its hard to keep the same angle and it also takes away a lot of material frighteningly fast.

I’ve seen them use a type on which you grind material off on a running band of sand paper, but the difference i suppose is that you are holding the knife and not the tool…

aequitas

Dear Sir/Madam,

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ATS3‚S steel is made by hitachi metals.
Hitachi Metals is also only a maker that makes raw steel of samurai sword.However Hitachi is a high-tech steel maker,the method of making steel is ancient way in the only case of making raw steel of sword.

The movie was seen after a long time recentry.
The latter overwhelms this movie “Last Samurai” with the samurai at the beginning of the Meiji era by the fight with military forces of the West type. The modernization of our country and the spirit of Japan are content something being thought.

This time was miraculously the period of the big revolution that the age of of the traditional steel manufacture method “tatara” that supplied the material of arms “Japan Steel” changed places into the modern steel manufacture method with high manufacturing efficiency.

The history of the iron manufacturing company in Japan is first Unpaku steel company in 1899. (Present Hitachi Metals,Ltd Yasugi Works),and second government-owned Yahata steel in 1901(Present Nippon Steel)established.The history of modern steel manufacture of Japan is about more than 100 years if the establishment of the latter is ths start point of modern steel manufacturing.

The operation of Nittoho tatara revived in 1977 was done in the Yokota-cho of Ocizmo in January. It is hear that about ten tons iron sand and same quantity charcoals are burnt three days and night, Ingot iron of 2.5 ton are obtained.And about 30 percent of this is roughly divided into Japanese sword smiths of the whole Japan with Tamahagane as a material of the sword.
In Izumo shimane, the exhibition related to the steel manufacture is in each place. Historical Museum etc. of the iron of of the Japan steel(Wakou) museum in Yasugi-shi,Tatara and swords museum in Oku-Izumo-cho, History of Japan iron Museum, and the route of the inquiry of the history of iron.

As for Izumo, the traditional steel manufacture method has been firmly succeeded with the steel making process in a modern factory though it is an age when people very often pay attention to the new one, and a past thing is deserted.
Because there are material etc. by our company, I will recommend the thing that it is referred, and Izumo of iron and the steel of Japan at the reason hometown is visited by all means.

The Nikkan Kogyo Shimbun
The Best 10 New Products
Nippon Brand Prize Next-Generation Cold-working Die Steel, SLD-MAGIC® Jan. 2007

　I　got this steel and made some kinds of blade.It is good machinablity compered to AISI D2.and also higher toughness and hardness than D2.
It is my favorite one now.

I think it should be pointed out that pattern-welded steels and Damascus steels are significantly different, and that they are often confused due to appearance. Many older blacksmiths found that Damascus steels had markings like they were pattern-welded, and so called their pattern-welded steels Damascus steel. However, true Damascus steel was not formed via pattern welding but by crystal propagation of iron carbides within the metals caused by very specific impurities.

I hear that state of remarkable sharp edge is achieved on cutlery made from yasugi(Hitachi) steel.Anyway history of tatara steel making method is remarkably deep.
In the oldest japanese myth litarure “Kojiki”,it was written as a imperial treasure sword that was gotten by the god Susanoo.It is thought that japanese myth is still alive with the last emperor “Tenno” in the world.

In addition,the appreciation of Japanese sword was developed from strength inspection of non-destruction.It is big defference compared to Damascus sword. And wavy pattern on sword surface is made not only by forging but also by quenching.
And also beautful wave pattern is controlled by raw material”Tamahagane”.So tamahagane is made by ancient steel making “tatara” which high-tech steel maker Hitachi Metals deal with.

I remember the book The chrysanthemum and sword written by Ruth Fulton Benedict.She is the most famous cultural anthropologist of Japan under the WWII.Did she know Yasugi? Pherpaps,she didn’t know this place because it was the secret still now.

The sword works of the earliest sword smith Yasutsuna was located near by Yasugi.I went to this place by my motor cycle in Japan.In this area,I felt somthing that deep history of steel sword making exists still now.

Famous Kusanagi sword is also related to Izumo Yasugi steel.
Yasugi steel is made by Hitachi Metals.
Another name is YSS.Sharpness made from this steel is famous worldwide.Razor blade of Gillette ,Schick is also made from this steel.

This kinds of steel is all of high carbon type.
But carbon fiber reinforcement will be limited in the field of aero-space vehicles.

is his fuel coal or charcoal