I’ve searched the annals (he, he… he said anal) of the Internet to find the two greatest video arguments I could find, one for the existance of a supreme diety, one against.
In the end, at least to me, it all seems to boil down to a simple philosophical decision. Is it possible that everything known to mankind simply exists? Or is an explanation required as to why?
EDIT: Incidentally, it is coincidence that this post comes immediately after the report of an Athiest being banned from YouTube. I had written this article at least a week before it was published, but posted the other one in real time as the news was breaking.
Here now is a compilation from a number of prominent believers, on the existance of God:
And here Dr. Richard Dawkins’, Oxford professor, on the myth of God:
{ 50 comments… read them below or add one }
Next Comments →
It is also interesting to note that you can go on over to ConvinceMe.net and debate the existance of God if you’d like.
Right now it seems to be about 50/50.
John
It is not whether God exists or not that is so bothersome. It’s that we humans are so arrogant to think we know God’s mind. On the other hand, this same arrogance is found in Atheists. They cannot, with any certainty, say that there is definitely NOT a supreme being either. What we do not know about our beginnings and how the universe started should humble us.
Deborah,
I couldn’t agree with you more. :-)
Thanks for the comment,
John
Does anyone else think that instead of a religious “God” there is just a Creator of the universe and life? Why would God create us, and let us live our entire lives just in order to worship him. And how does the idea of free will exsist if the bible predicts the future?
I simply believe in a higher power…or outside power. Call him what you want…its just the idea of a Religious God seems too silly and made up for me to believe. Religion is Man made…the universe is something different.
I don’t want to offend certain people..believe what you want and just be happy with your life in the present….
We weren’t made just to worship God. He made us for fellowship. He gave us a free will to make up own minds if we wanted to have a relationship with Him. What good would it have done Him to have made puppets without a free will. And just because God knows the future doesn’t mean He causes the future. We as humans can do a fine job on our own of messing up our lives, but it seems when things are all screwed up then we blame God. I also think people don’t want to admit that there’s a God because then they become accountable for their actions.
Ruth,
Conceptually I have a little difficulty with reconciling the fact that God is both omnipotent and omnicient yet allows bad things to be done by people, or happen to people. It seems to me that the concept of free will being the “great equalizer” leaves a lot to be desired. I’ve heard this used to explain why bad things happen to people all of my life and from a variety of religious scholars and I’ve decided that this is a widely quoted yet incorrect interpretation of some biblical passages.
I, for one, would have preferred a life given to me without free will so long as I was always happy, provided for, and safe. Yet if there is a God, he doesn’t grant life in this manner. Instead each of us must toil, worry and suffer until the end of our days. Indeed, the only thing that free will gives man is the opportunity to buy a one way ticket to hell. So I would turn it around and ask what good does free will give mankind, as opposed to everyone being created with a divine set of beliefs and ideals which they would follow blindly?
There would be a lot less suffering and despair, and evil would not exist if God created us without free will. What more could we ask for?
John
Humanity was originally created with free will but without knowledge of good and evil. Morals. That all changed after Eden.
Ruth,
I don’t understand your logic here:
“I also think people don’t want to admit that there’s a God because then they become accountable for their actions.”
Why does one need an invisible, imaginary “man” watching over her in order to be “accountable for their actions”? That is weak. And, you may think people “don’t want to admit that there’s a God,” but how can one “admit” to believing in someone in which you cannot hear, see, smell or communicate with (I know, some have “communications” with god). It defies logic. I cannot tell you to believe in the little green man living under my house and then question your motives because you don’t believe.
I am not surprised that one would have a hard time believing in something that they cannot see, but then again I cannot see gravity, but would feel the consequences if I jump off a building. Spiritual truths are the same, you might not believe, but the consequences are still there. Free will is not a one-way ticket to hell. God is not some big ogre getting a laugh at human suffering. He made a way of escape if we would only choose it. Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” 1.) Recognize man sinful nature 2.) Penalty for sin is death (Romans 5:12 ” Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned”. 3.) Jesus paid the penalty (Romans 5:8 ” But God demonstrated His own love for us, in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.” 4.) Accept Christ (Romans 10:9 ” that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved”. So, you do have a choice. Right this moment you can make a free will choice to reject Christ or accept Him. There would be allot less suffering if man would live according to the Ten Commandments. If mankind could just grasp ten concepts the world would live in peace. And as to the comment about logic, it’s not a matter of logic. It’s a matter of faith, faith in man’s wisdom to solve everything, or faith in God. I personally feel it’s a sad existence to live your whole life void of hope and real peace. I’ve always wondered how people cope with tragedy without God. My uncle died 6 months ago of cancer. He sufferred greatly before he died, yet he had an inner peace through the whole ordeal, and I know without a shadow of a doubt that I will see my Uncle again someday, and it’s not because of the little green man, it’s because of Christ.
Lets zoom ahead a few years to when I die…
If a religious god exists and I have led a good life by his definition (minus the whole jesus thing ’cause that’s obviously just a way to make money off of ignorant people), and I get the big invite to come on in…do you think I can turn it down?
There is no way I could handle being around all those churchies for an eternity.
Ruth,
I’m sure you know that the gravity reference is a bit of an exaggeration because obviously you actually can see it, measure it, etc. I understand your point that we cannot explain everything, but actually 99% of people will not believe in anything they cannot see, or prove exists. Religion is the only (bar none) concept that humans actively ask one another to believe despite the complete absence of proof or fact. Indeed it is the process of believing despite the absense of fact which is so cherished by the community.
I also respectfully disagree that free will is not a ticket to hell. If God were to have created man as a perfect being, with perfect knowledge and without sin the world would be… well, perfect! We would love one another, take care of one another, and not need 10 Commandments because God’s perfect creation doesn’t require “management”. It is only by the interjection of free will into the soul of man that he becomes imperfect and bad things begin to happen. So, from a Devil’s advocate point of view (no pun intended) if God really created and loves me why didn’t he make me without sin? I would trade free will for heaven any day of the week based on what I’ve heard about heaven.
As far as your point number 4 above, that is a philosophical deficiency from many people’s perspective. What you are saying is that Ghandi is rotting in Hell because he was not a Christian – even though by any other measure of a man he was one of the finest examples to have walked the planet. Also, the Billions of people who literally never heard of Jesus will burn for eternity because they have no way to accept something they’ve never heard of.
Finally, you are correct about life sucking if you don’t believe in God. It is much easier to accept tragedy if one can dismiss it as being “part of a greater plan” as opposed to viewing it as simply a curse of mortality.
John
Greg,
First of all you may not have a few years, second your ” if “is a very big word, Because ” if ” there is a God and like you said you lived a good life by his definition, which means he would have given rules ( like the ten comandments ) and you get an invite to where ? Heaven ? Where did you get an idea there is one or even something after this life? If there is not a hell then why even bother to live a good life. You must believe there is a consequence. As far as living with churchies lucky for you he promises us new bodies and perfect spirits, Let me tell you a story of a little boy of five years old born with bone cancer fed by a tube in his stomach his whole life, lived in bed, he was dying and his dad was carrying him back and forth across the room as he slept, he woke up and said “daddy can I take a walk with Jesus”, and his dad said sure you can , he smiled really big and died. After witnessing something as innocent as that how can you deny there is a God. The Bible says unless we come as a little child we can’t not enter the kingdom of God. He also tell us we need faith the size of a mustard seed. He knows thats how much our minds a capable of. We can not even comprehind the mind of God but if I was to error in my thinking I would hope it would be on his side because he not only promises Heaven but he warns against Hell. Where is you invitation to? Romans 3:23 says For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life…But God commended his love for us that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Romans 5:8. If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness, 1 John 1:9
The Man,
I appreciate your concern over the millions whom have passed on and may have never heard of “Jesus” per say. Christ is also concerned for these individuals. And He states that even by looking at creation and the complexities of the universe one would know that God existed. He also commands people who do believe to tell others, like what we’re doing here. As far as all the people whom you are concerned over, I do not know thier hearts, I am not God. How would I know what was on their mind when they passed on. I am not trying to divide anyone over a religion. I believe it is a personal decision between you and you’re maker.
I have one other comment. So what… so what happens if I live my life believing in God and you don’t and I end up wrong. I’ve then lived a life of love, and helping people when they needed a hand, and I would of had a good life, not wasted. But what if what I say is true. How will you end up?
You make a lot of assumptions here. Living “without God”
This is an incredibly arrogant assumption: “God is not some big ogre getting a laugh at human suffering.” How would you know the mind of God when even you admit that you have to have “faith” that he exists? If life here on earth is any indication of what “god” is like, then he is capricious, vindictive and mean-spirited. If man (and woman) is created in “His” image, then we’re in big trouble….
You assume that I believe in the divine nature of the Bible. I do not. I do not accept this text as sacred for many reasons. So, with me at least, you cannot make an argument rooted in the Bible when I don’t recognize that as law or even as valid.
Religion has been at the heart of nearly every war in this world.
You also assume that one cannot find peace, hope and happiness without belief in God. That is false and small-minded thinking. God does not bring me hope and peace. Only I can bring that to myself. I know many unhappy, tortured Christians. Santa Claus can’t bring me peace and happiness either, yet Santa and God have a lot in common.
Finally, we know that there is a force called gravity. We can PROVE that. We do not know there is a force called God. We canNOT prove that. We just happen to put all the things we don’t understand about the universe (i.e. how it began) into a concept called “God.” It is easier that way and brings many of us comfort. I understand why you would want to believe, and I’m not slamming your religion. Perhaps you’d like to open your mind to the views of others.
Sorry, John, I don’t agree that life sucks if you don’t believe.
I had a similar discussion on my blog. One of the other bloggers wrote this, which I thought was very nice:
I believe there is no God. Believing there is no God means the suffering I’ve seen in my family, and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn’t caused by an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn’t bothered to help or is just testing us, but rather something we all may be able to help others with in the future. No God means the possibility of less suffering in the future. Believing there is no God gives me more room for belief in family, people, love, truth, beauty, sex and all the other things I can prove and that make this life the best life I will ever have.
That pretty much sums up how I feel, too. This is heaven to me. No, it’s not perfect, but life is incredibly beautiful, even in times of hardship and sadness. It is an amazing stroke of luck that we are all here and able to communicate symbolically.
When I was an undergraduate, I struggled with the whole concept of free will. At that time, I still was Christian, just not a follower of any particular religion. As an agnostic, the free will issue is a little different. It is now “instinct” –what is instinctive and “preprogrammed” into us? In what ways are we hard-wired to behave or predisposed to make certain choices, if at all?
My question to the individual who believes that God should have created us so that we would only do His will, would not allow God to show His love towards us. He is a jealous God. If you are a parent, you would understand that nothing gives you more joy than having a child do the things that you have taught them out of love, not punishment. In the near future, we will have robots (robotics) that will do exactly what you say. Not out of Love, but out of our selfishness to meet or needs. God created Adam and Eve with a free will so that he could give and recieve love in a perfect world. However, by Adam sin entered into the world. Man was decieved by the devil into believing that he could be like God after eating from the tree. Sin is so powerful, that it spreads like a cancer, causing all living things to die. So God chose to show his love could go even further than our lack of love. He took on the challenge of sin and lived perfect life, so that His Son Jesus could be become the sacrifice for all the worlds sins. The bible says it pleased God to “crush Him” for our initquities. Yet, on that same note, those that don’t believe that God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, will be punished. It will please God to crush them and He will hear their cries and He will take no notice. If I were God and loved you enough to give you a free will and loved you enough to give you a second chance. I would have no remorse for those who reject my Son. Remember, few people die willingly for power, money, and or greed. But anyone, is capable of dying for something that they love. What do you love?
Ah, jeez, Ann. This is why some people need religion. Are you jk with your statement about “If there is not a hell, then why even bother to live a good life.” Are you telling me you ONLY behave because you think someone is “watching you”? Are you “good” just so you’ll go to heaven. Sure sounds like it. Don’t you think that morality should come from within? Wouldn’t that make your value system a little bit stronger???
If the Bible says we come as a little child, it is because no man in his right mind can believe in a fairy tale. Only children can. One must be simple and niave to blindly accept and believe.
Ha…nothing better than an upset churchie.
Look, if you want to believe in religion, than believe. Some of us feel that if God exists, and I’m aware of Pascel’s Wager, than it is absurd to think that he will judge our actions. As John says, why would he give us free will when we are obviously not responsible enough to use it…kind of like the death penalty. I like to think there is some form of existance after life, and maybe there is a supreme being…here is what he would say to me after I die:
SB: Well…what did you think?
Greg: Lots of beauty, but I saw many people suffer.
SB: Yeah…it’s pretty much luck of the draw.
I know that if God exists, he certainly has not chosen a specific religion as more correct than any other. Also, why in the world would he have an ego that requires people to worship him. The whole bible thing is contrived by men looking to take your money. It was written 300 years after Jesus died…and he was never a Christian, just the main character in a grand story.
Also…why bring up a sick child that died of cancer. Did you further your argument at all? Probably just a way to bring up scripture again…makes the rest of us laugh. I have friends and relatives that have died of cancer and they smiled at the end because they knew their suffering was about to end. Just because this child was brainwashed at an early age means nothing and it changed nothing…and I’m terribly sorry for your loss…but don’t bring up that stuff as it really is not relavant and it makes us all dumber by you saying it.
I know the risks, though I am confident your beliefs are incorrect. I lead a good life, one that follows most of the 10 Commandments (one of my neighbors is a pain and I use the lord’s name in vain all the time) becasue they are obvious…ever heard of Natural Law?
In the end, anything as smart as a Supreme Being or God would rather hang with me than have you follow him around praising him. I can offer much more interesting conversation. You guys are all the same and I’m betting someone has already filled the role that you would take.
Deborah, I too know many unhappy people of every religion or no religion. And the reason I’m writting is to see different view points. I find them very interesting. I’m not putting anyone down, just offering a diffrent view piont. I do wonder though, why is it that anyone tries to be a “good” person at all. If God doesn’t exist, if there’s no authority, no reason. What’s the point? Why not live with reckless abandon, and let all hell break loose. Why have laws? Somewhere, there has to be an authority, an absolute, or this world would be crazy.
Ruth:
If I were to sit in my car and watch a man beat a five year old into pulp and leave the child in the street to die, I would be sick. Damn sick.
Enough said about your god who “knows the future.”
Greg,
You make several good points. Specifically, the one about bringing up the story of a child who died of cancer. Why do that? Because it appeals to our emotions and that is what religion does. When a person can’t use logic, then use emotional appeals. Same with politics, yes?
I agree. You can and should follow a moral code without the promise of heaven or threat of hell.
Ruth,
Only the truly religous would ask what’s the point in living a good life if there is no god? I know I’ve asked you this already: Do you really need someone looking over your shoulder to be “good”? If so, I want to stay away from you. Can you not do what is right because it is right and good for your fellow man as well as yourself? Can’t you be kind because you understand and empathize with someone else’s feelings? Wouldn’t you help a child or an old woman who was hurt because you should? If you found a wallet and no one was looking, would you take the money out of it or would you try to find the owner because you want to spread goodness in the world and because you’d want someone to do that for you?
Ruth:
“…so what happens if I live my life believing in God and you don’t and I end up wrong. I’ve then lived a life of love, and helping people when they needed a hand, and I would of had a good life, not wasted. But what if what I say is true. How will you end up?” What do you mean by “not wasted”? You mean, if you’ve done good and gone to heaven, then your life is “not wasted.” But if you’ve done good deeds and just flat-out died, your life was a waste. That’s an awfully selfish world view.
If your god is who he says he is, then we both end up in the same place. But you have done your good deeds under the pretense of reward. And I’d say that’s a false reason. But, of course, that’s just what I believe, right?
Deborah, that wasn’t my point. I was wondering what is it that makes right, right? Isn’t it a moral code written in our conscience by God? You would help an old lady or return a wallet because of the preciousness of others. Because we’re made in His likeness, and He has told us to do unto other as we want done to us. Doesn’t sound selfish at all. But here’s the deal. I’m not going to convince you to believe, because you’ve already made up your mind. This argument has gone on for generations. People way smarter then me have debated this question over and over. For me, I do believe that God exists. Do I have every answer to all these hypothetical questons? no, but for me God and faith makes my life better. That was my choice, what you decide is up to you, but I know God promises those who truely seek Him, will be found by Him. So, instead of asking me if God exists, ask God. In you’re own way, just ask Him if He’s real to show Himself to you. Sounds probably crazy, but what does it hurt.
Wow, I was traveling today and I missed a LOT of discussion on this post… :-)
Deborah, you were right to correct me when I made the generalized statement that “life sucks”. What I should have said is that I personally find that life generally sucks. I’ll leave it at that.
Randy – is it your position that God would be unable to have created a perfect man and woman who were both without sin? Because it is my understanding, after decades spent in the Methodist church, that God is capable of anything. And if that is true, could he not have given us free will and also never have invented sin? Mother Teresa had both free will and was 99% without sin and I’m sure God was happy to receive her love. And Jesus was without sin and God was happy to receive his love.
Ruth – there is an alternate social theory as to why people do what we define as “good”, “right” or “just”. It was proposed by Socrates and his student Plato hundreds of years before Christ. Essentially, people wish to live in a “good” and “just” society because it benefits everyone. You do not need the fear of God to understand that if everyone behaves like a heathen you end up with a chaotic state of mutually assured self destruction. So society imprints these concepts on it’s members from a very young age through teaching, peer pressure and emulation. Certain tribes of the American Indians are a good example of this. They lived very peaceful lives in harmony with nature within societies that were based on concepts such as “honor”, “loyalty” and “peace” (Until the “God-fearing” white man slaughtered them!). Hopefully that somewhat explains why people would still choose the same lifestyle even without religion.
John
Next Comments →