And a final note – in my posts some words due to writing this on iPhone were changed by the dictionary. If a word doesn’t make sense please use context and guess lol.

To recognize our ignorance as wisdom this is true ignorance
to recognize our wisdom as ignorance this is true wisdom
- Lao tzu

I am not Muslim. Holding a position is not bias, bias is holding a position die to anything but facts.

I do not believe in a supernatural being. However, I keep my mind open to ideas beyond duality like Allah, Tao, pure reality or whatever, but would recognize any experience of such a concept would be purely confined to a limited human mind anyway. I have no religion, never have. Often wish I could, I have looked very indepth at most major world religions and philosophies but it when it comes to an literal afterlife I couldn’t believe it in anyway. I take what I can from what I can nothing more.

Maybe I am wrong. Maybe you are. Maybe time will see.

The superiority of men, or more correctly, that in which men exceed women, primarily in the context of the verse is earning capacity. In Arabia 1400 years ago most women could not support themselves at all. Thus, men were ordered to responsibly support women, their wives. If you watched the video by Hamza yusuf you will see that he says this is a rule but exceptions happened in the time of the prophet and where women did not need this they obviously controlled their own finances and there is a Hadith showing that in some cases where men couldn’t work the wives supported them. Muhammad’s wde herself was an independent rich merchant.

Why should you not support me? You are not obligated to under this verse since I am capable of providing for myself. If however you were my wife and I was disabled etc and you could do so you should. In fact, every Muslim is obligated as or of the 5 pillars of Islam to give a small percentage of their wealth to support the poor, needy and disabled in society. So this principle is consistent.

I also agree to leave this as an agree to disagree situation. I actualy in my first post did say I wouldn’t get involved because to properly discuss this as you said could go on forever. I will just make a few closing points though, briefly as possible.

Firstly, I will not speak for the vast majority of Muslims on the issue of wife beating, although there is a problem I am not in a position to say of it is a majority. However, I will say the majority of Muslims probably are idiots. The majority of Christians, Hindus, buddhists, atheists and agnostics are also probably idiots in my opinion – look at the world. But I still feel whether or not you agree or disagree with a religion you have to judge it by doing your beat to remove it’s adherents stupidity and look strictly at it’s teachings. For example a violent “Christian” does not mean Jesus taught violence, even ifhe claims the violence is in the name of Jesus.

“A quick Google would quickly show that there are a number of interpretations and the one chosen by the author is not widely accepted amongst the educated Muslims. By educated I mean properly educated…”

Now what you are telling me is that among Muslims the PROPERLY educated ones don’t accept the notion of beating women. But that only tells me that the vast majority of all Muslims actually DO believe it since they have been following the Quran for at least 14 centuries – and only in very, very recent history have the masses really had access to any sort of higher learning. Think about this carefully, and don’t tell me about what other religions do – I know all religions exploit people. And it’s not a justification (well, we’re not as bad as THEM).

Perhaps the author did genuinely mean well, saw a verse, heard a talk by some idiot advocating violence against women, and was understandably outraged.

Yes. Many, many, many times.

• Here
• Here
• Here
• Here
• I could do this all day…

Sadly, I won’t engage further with you in this discussion. But not for any reason you’ll likely understand. You see I just don’t care what you think. I have a complete and total apathy for religion in a way that you will never understand, unless you one day abandon it.

Right now you are obviously young and fiery and full of vigor to defend those beliefs that you hold so core to your view of the world. (You are also extremely foolish to assume that I never did so myself.) But if you are truly half my age then you have only been a man for a few years at most. Its likely you have yet to experience true happiness, absolute loss, betrayal, the death of close friends and family, political service, travel around the world, the responsibility of supporting a family, decades of marriage, military service, real failure, tremendous success, and much much more. All of which I have.

Perhaps as you get older you will evaluate not only the words on a page like this, but also the experience of the man behind them and ask yourself “what does he know that I don’t?” If you took the time to do that, you may find out that my personal views are shaped by the reality of the world we live in today, and a real desire to make an immediate and measurable impact in it. Not based on an ancient religion that outlines what someone else’s view of a perfect society was so long ago that no living person even knows the name of their own ancestors who lived in it.

Cheers,

John P.

First of all, I am glad you stopped by and chimed in with an alternative view. So don’t take the following comments I’m about to make for any sort of disrespect as I understand your points, give you full credit for your beliefs, and still respectfully disagree.

You spent much time in this and the following comment pointing out that I seem “biased”. And I believe that you think my bias is against Islam. So let me clear up that point before moving on. I hold absolutely zero bias against the Islamic religion. Or Christianity, Hindi, or any other. Because I believe in none. I think that anyone who believes in a supernatural being is equally wrong. But I also don’t care if you choose to do it – so have at it! Just don’t try to force me to do it.

By the way, I get the feeling that you are Muslim, so if we are admitting bias I think it’s fair for you to clear that matter up as well. Your rigorous defense here does not leave you appearing as unbiased as myself – who can easily point out flaws equally in all religions without caring about any in particular.

Having said that, you suggest that I have not thoroughly researched this issue, but you also, “…admit that Islam while discouraging striking a wife (through Hadith) has left the possibility open in the quran even if only via an incorrect interpretation of an ambiguous verse.”

Clearly the point of my entire discussion was to point out that – for right or wrong – many, many people have “incorrectly” (according to you) interpreted this verse, and have been doing so for century after century.

Since I’m pointing out flaws in your argument, you also stated, “…the superiority mentioned in surah 4 is physical superiority, earning capacity superiority, and societal superiority that existed at the time, and still does exist in many places…”

Well, I’d be willing to bet that I am personally bigger, stronger, faster, and have much higher earning capacity and societal “rank” than you do. So why would God not charge me with taking care of you? Seriously, this is a valid question!

There is ZERO doubt that the range of physical traits between ALL men is far greater than the average physical capability of a man and a woman. Some men are extremely weak and small. How about midgets, or crippled people? Men injured in war, or ravaged by disease? These men all have far less physical ability or earning ability than even a weak woman.

We could go back and forth all day arguing this point I’m sure. You with some sort of spiritual argument backed up by something written in an ancient text, and me relying on the simple modern principle that all people are created equal.

At the end of the day, I personally believe that I am no more valuable than a woman, and that genitalia do not define the worth of a human or set one above another. It is only our actions that separate us.

John P.

“The men are to support the women by what God has gifted them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The reformed women are devotees and protectors of privacy what God has protected. As for those women from whom you fear disloyalty, then you shall advise them, abandon them in the bedchamber, and separate them; if they obey you, then do not seek a way over them; God is High, Great.”

And here is a talk by someone actually qualified to open their mouth on the matter:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDEKJDgXO-U&feature=related

Once again I would just like to say I think it is highly irresponsible of the author to have written citing one possible English translation without doing any proper research at all into the matter. A quick Google would quickly show that there are a number of interpretations and the one chosen by the author is not widely accepted amongst the educated Muslims. By educated I mean properly educated, not just anyone who takes on the title ‘sheikh’ but someone like Hamza Yusuf who has studied intensively with proper scholars with a lineage. Also the translation ‘superior’ is something I have rarely seen in the 5 or 6 translations I own. The translations I prefer (and I mean overall, not just for this verse) both use sometihng to the extent “by what God has given one more than the other.”

Perhaps the author did genuinely mean well, saw a verse, heard a talk by some idiot advocating violence against women, and was understandably outraged. However, claiming that the Quran tells someone “in black and white” while probably citing some half-literate orientalists translation is just not the way to discuss an issue.

Anyone can write on the internet. But what do you want to achieve with your writing? To really stimulate an exchange of ideas and improve the thinking of people? Or to add fuel to the fire that see Muslim women being abused every day as they walk down the street simply because of the xenophobic conditions you helped contribute to?

By all means, speak out against domestic violence. By all means, speak out against a culture that fosters it (but preferably speak out against all conditions that foster it equally). And by all means even speak out against a “muslim” culture which may mean a large portion of uneducated people accept domestic violence. But do not Googling for cheap fodder to use in degrading a religion that is not the cause. Do not further increase the separation and hatred in the world by further demonizing a culture that has already been so disproportionately attacked.

And if you want your intellect to be respected at all do not start an article with “This is not meant to be offensive to anyone…” and follow it up with comments like “because of any ancient text written by someone who literally didn’t even know the Earth was round or what oxygen is.” If you sincerely didn’t want to offend people why would you insult the holy book of almost a quarter of the planet, suggesting its falsity? Also, Islam also contributed immensely to science. While Christendom still thought the Earth was the centre of the Universe and killing dissenters, Muslims were understanding the Universe. The numbers you use, algebra, even the algorithm used in your computer comes from Muslim scientists. Islam encouraged objective understanding of the world in the Quran itself. And I some how doubt your views on the Quran.

So are you a racist? A Xenophobe? Maybe you didn’t mean to be….or are you an objective person? Are you fuelling hate or trying to better the world?

I hope in the future you write more objectively and think a bit more, it is weird having to try and educate someone who is about twice my age….

I just want to say the article and subsequent comments by the author fail to be objective and thoroughly researched. Especially with such a controversial topic a person should be very careful if they are going to write on it. Also the authors bias is shown is subsequent comments.

If someone is really curious about the treatment of women in Islam they should thoroughly research it using the most knowledgable Islamic sources and then weigh it objectively.

Personally I strongly agree with women not being hit, I do not think Islam in anyway prescribes wife beating, but I do agree that Islamic culture does have a problem with violence towards women (no it that culture alone). I also admit that Islam while discouraging striking a wife (through Hadith) has left the possibility open in the quran even if only via an incorrect interpretation of an ambiguous verse.

This however in no way compares to many things in the bible, or treatment of women in other religions such as Hinduism.

But even assuming this religion discourages violence towards women through the Hadith ” the best among you do not strike you wife” but permits it after two warnings in a limited manner this is hardly the worst treatment of women laid down by existing religions (although I do recognize culture may be worse in Islamic countries leading to de facto worse treatment of women but that should be addressed for what it is).

Also the superiority mentioned in surah 4 is physical superiority, earning capacity superiority, and societal superiority that existed at the time, and still does exist in many places. Also the earning capacity superiority will always exist where women may lose working time due to raising and having children. This verse gives men the responsibility to support them, while else where in the quran it is made clear women are also free to earn their own money.

Women were created spiritually superior in Islam. This is because they lack the arrogance that accompanies physical strength. They are the more merciful of the two sexes. That is why angels only ever appear in male form in Islam – they have no arrogance etc so have no need for the physically weaker body that facilitates many of the beautiful character qualities of women.

For anyone wanting to get a good understanding of the topic you can YouTube a talk called men and women by sheikh Hamza Yusuf for a start.

And just to reiterate I am not saying that Islam has not made it clearly forbidden to strike a woman (although any half serious Muslim takes a Hadith almost on par with a quranic verse and since no verse contradicts the Hadith directly ordering someone to hit their wife Islam actually discourages the practice) this is not the worst thing to ever be taught in a religion. In Jewish law a woman is stone to death for adultery. Ironically a practice that occurs in Muslim countries. This just shows perfectly that it is largely an issue of culture since these same uneducated, poor, destroyed (being a saintly us marine, you should probably research the role the west has played in creating the middle east we now see) societies are even practicing the barbaric practices of Judaism! It isn’t happening because of a vague Quran verse, it is happening because of living conditions. There were Muslim socieities in the past far advanced of Europe at the time where women were treated better than their counter parts in Europe. Blaming the current treatment entirely on religion doesn’t make sense. In fact I would bet if there was a way to determine it I would say that wife beating is more likely among the least practising and least sincere Muslims. While the more sincere wouldn’t even consider it as it goes against the Hadith mentioned above. Not to mention that Islam sees anger as a form of disbelief and even in battles a Muslim should be free of ego. It isn’t in line with the spirit of Islam that a person hit another out of anger if at all.

You do know that I’m a former US Marine right? And that I’d kill another human at the drop of a hat? But perhaps you are making a joke because I’m saying that women don’t deserve to be beaten? Oh well, who cares…

You realize you used over 300 words to babble about how I’m “attacking your religion” and how “you are on a pedestal”, yet in all those words you never once addressed the key point of this blog post. So, I’ll outline it for you again very slowly and clearly so you don’t miss anything:

So far as I am aware there is no similar religious teaching in Christianity, Buddhism, or other major religions…

The Koran (Quran) instructs men to beat their wives.

QURAN 4:34 – “Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them.

Now, don’t tell me how nice your husband is to you. I don’t care. The topic of this blog post deals with the fact that a single organized religion actually instructs its male followers that:

1. You are superior to women
2. If they don’t listen to you, you should beat them.

It’s right there in black and white. The facts are not in dispute. The only thing that is up for debate here is how it should be interpreted. So, if you are one of the lucky women who isn’t getting beaten, then YIPPEE for you!!! But there are women on THIS VERY DISCUSSION THREAD who are victims of spousal abuse that is directly related to the fact that they are Muslim. Go back a little farther and read their stories.

Oh, I’m sorry. Clearly, you don’t give a damn about them. They are in a third world country, and you are lucky enough to be in “America”. (Where guys like me fought and bled for that freedom you enjoy.)

John P.

PS – This post isn’t a popularity contest. It’s about sticking up for people who can’t stick up for themselves. You should look into doing the same some time. Why don’t you go volunteer at an abused women’s shelter and then come tell me what you think.

PS, I hope to God that you are not just seeking popularity by picking such hot and controversial issues?! Who am I kidding, of course you are.

I find it peculiar that you take issue with the specific language surrounding how exactly men can beat their women, but don’t take any exception to this part:

Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other…

The issue here is whether or not men truly have any sort of authority over women. They do not. I don’t care what your book tells you. I am a man. I am no better than you are. God did not make me any better than you. If anything, I am certain the opposite is true! YOU are better than ME.

Let’s be sure to also point out that I doubt you read the original manuscript of the Koran, in the original ancient language. So you, like me, are relying on someone’s translation and transliteration into another language. Therefore we cannot rely solely on the specific words, but must instead interpret the spirit of the ancient wording.

Furthermore, your logic is simply faulty. The rationale for your argument is that, “…sometimes we need a slap on the hand to realise we are being silly….” Really? I am able to tell people when they are being silly without touching them almost every day! Just as I am doing for you now! The only reason I would need to slap you would be if I was not able to convince you to change your mind with rational argument. Then the threat of physical injury will FORCE you to.

You see, we are dealing with the concept of persuasion, vs. force. No human has the right to force another human to think the way they do. Furthermore, you must think more broadly and consider the fact that individuals are not always able to convince one another to see things their way. For example, what if you are actually smarter and more educated than your husband? What if he is arguing something with you that goes against, say, the laws of physics, but you simply can not convince him because he is ignorant. He has the right to hit you to force his uneducated opinion on you? Yes, your arrogance that you think you know more than him gives him the right (by your translation) to strike you.

And by your own argument, do you suppose that Men are never silly? I can guarantee you that I am sometimes wrong, or silly. Does that mean that my wife, or my best friend, should physically intimidate or injure me to let me know? NO! And do you think your man is more perfect than me? Because as far as I know, all mortal men are equally fallible.

So, I suggest that you should really think about the point I am making here.

• As a man I have NO incentive to give up my power over women. I am actually incented to maintain that power structure! So why in the world would I do this? It doesn’t make sense for me to lie about this.
• You are being exposed to another way of thinking here. There are billions of people on Earth, and they all live differently. You have been surrounded by people who want you to think the way that they do, but there are billions who do not. Consider that the world works for those people who think differently as well.
• If you are scared of the world, and find it more convenient to allow the men around you to take responsibility for you, then so be it. But don’t try and justify your laziness or lack of willingness to control your own destiny with some sort of divine philosophy. It’s easier to let someone control you! Just admit it and move on.

In summary, there is no place for physical punishment in any marriage, or any relationship. We can only have peace and happiness if we have a society ruled by law and rational argument. If you find yourself with people whom you cannot ever agree with, then you should have the right to seek out those with whom you do agree so that you can live in peace. Physical confrontation should be defensive, and always reserved for tyrants and those who wish to impose their will upon others.

John P. (Who would NEVER hit you.)

you also lef out the comment at bottom of Quran’s page to this verse:
AS A LAST RESORT. I IS UNLAWFUL TO TO STRIKE THE FACE OR CAUSE BODILY INJURY.

i feel this topic has been blown totally out of proportion to be honest, sometimes we need a slap on the hand to realise we are being silly, we all know us women can get abit out of hand with gossip, drama etc…

I can explain why Muslim men have happily taken “daraba” to mean “beat”. It’s all about power. Whenever one group sees the opportunity to oppress another to its benefit, then the ugly side of human nature shows itself. There is absolutely nothing in the Quran about women covering themselves head to toe. What is said is for women AND men to dress modestly.

it’s funny to see how religion is interpreted one way, and as soon as people see such interpretation as bad, it is reinterpreted. you think women and men act differently? that is only true to a certain extent and there are many other factors other than genetics. i suggest you try and look up your information from some place other than the internet.

Islam gives women the upper hand above men in plenty of matters, like expecting financial support from their father, brother or husband.

The fact that you think that a religion which makes women wholly dependent on men is OK merely because it is gracious enough to allow them to be dependent tells me that you and I are never going to agree.

The women I know would be highly insulted by your comments, and indeed I know several women whom I guarantee earn more money than you ever will in your lifetime. So you would be doing them a disservice if all they got was a measly little allowance from you.

John