So let me get this straight … when you get an electric car you get a manual, and when you get a wife you get the Koran. So like … the wife is basically a glorified car, an object you can treat however you want. I think this guy is reading his Koran a bit selectively. Bleh.

Well, to start off, I appreciate your curiosity about Islam, John. I’ve had a quick look on the other article about beating women, but didn’t have time to read everything, but I’d love to add a few remarks:

• The man in the video above is not a ‘holy’ man, he is a scholar, and for Islam, he’s like a doctor in medicine. He can be an expert, but he’s not protected from making mistakes.
• Women do not have catalogs or manuals. Quran is my holy book (I am a Muslim), but I don’t see it as a women’s manual. I think this is condescending.
• Beating women has always existed, in all countries, all cultures, all religions, everywhere… Islam came to put a limit for it, and I guess you heard the other scholar enumerate the conditions of what would be an ‘acceptable’ beating.

So the fact that you have some law in the States that forbids beating women does not change the fact that there are American wives beaten every day. And no, not all of them are married to Muslim men, I strongly believe so.

• Men are NOT superior to women in Islam. None of the Islamic aspects that you consider lowering women are. Please do not compare other living and cultural standards to yours, and then maybe you’ll understand better.
• If men can beat their wives when they are ‘misbehaving’, women can ‘treat’ (as the scholar said) their husbands when they are misbehaving as well. But the difference is that women, by instinct and nature, just don’t beat men. This does no suggest any inferiority, it does suggest that men and women are different, and thus have different ways to treat the same issue.
• I personally don’t believe men and women are equal. And I believe that if you and I got down to analyzing our perceptions about men and women, we’ll find out that the difference is semantic and that at the end, we both agree.

So whatever the deity you guys are worshiping, whatever your standards of good and justice are, please do concentrate on knowing our similarities rather than focusing on our differences. You’ll find out that we are living differently, but we just are the same.

• “I nearly fell out of my chair watching those women try to eat spaghetti with that mask on their face!”

That’s not a mask, it’s a veil. And let’s put that aside please, for it has not relevance in your topic.

As for the second video Adi, you’d better be crying. I don’t see anything funny about that video. When you are in a city like Ghaza, with bombings and dead/injured people all around, I don’t expect you to walk calmly, or take the time to park the ambulance properly before picking up the person injured.

I don’t see why these videos were brought up in this topic, but they show that that commentator doesn’t seem to have a clue of what’s being discussed here.

I might be back to answer more of your questions that were left in the comments of the other article.
Peace!

Are comments moderated here? Or my comment got somehow lost?

You know, I can see how it’s a different culture, that perhaps as an outsider, I’m just not able to grasp their reasonings.. but if you don’t mind the plug, it reminds me too much of this:

http://www.theginblog.com/2007/10/artist-chains-up-dog-until-it-dies-is-this-art-or-animal-abuse/

Neither argument or “justification” really makes me say “ok, well that makes sense - carry on!”.. And both are equally as sad, especially since the women in these cultures don’t have the ability to up and leave or demand rights =/

John, I can’t see my comments (original comment, and check-up comment that is), nor the ones that followed me on this page, but I received the notifications (3). I only see the first 3 comments here, Urbanist’s, Adi’s and yours.
I just sent you an email to the address the notifications are sent from (webmaster@…), but I got a failure delivery.
You can see my email, so write to me if you want me to resend that message to you.

Just a quick note for now: I still can’t see the comments here, so I’ll wait until I see them (hopefully tomorrow) before I come back to reply to your comment (I need to see the comments here for my own peace of mind).

That’s a pretty disturbing video, but it does nothing to change the opinions of many Americans. Reading the discussion in the comments is pretty interesting as well. I’m of the mind that it’s pretty outrageous that people from over there can condone such behavior. But I also think that it’s pretty despicable for people in America to beat their wives as well.

Even though I can’t see the comments, and with the risk of missing some comment here or there, I’d love to answer those I could read.

@Adi: The videos suggest that the person who posted them has no clue about the topic here, that’s one thing. Now if you do know what the topic is about and still posted these videos, that’s another thing, and it doesn’t change that they were irrelevant. And if John is up to making a whole blog entry about the veil, or how Palestinians should maintain their logical thinking and calmness during bombings to save injured people (this is how I understood the video), then I’ll be glad to come in and put my two cents about these.

I guess that you lived in Israel, when you meant living in the Middle East. If that’s the case, are you sure that enables you to fully understand all the cultures, traditions and religion of all your neighbor countries? That’s actually applicable to living in any country in the ME, but Israel is even more of a special case.

I actually can’t be that affirmative about countries I am familiar with.

@MG: I personally don’t see the link between your article and this topic, but as you said, maybe as an ‘outsider’ you relate to it. I hope my comments here will help you understand even a little bit our reasoning.
@John: Please do not take what I say as the ultimate truth about Islam, nor myself as a representative of Muslim women, but I am telling you what I know and how I see things. I am open for corrections from people who know better about my religion, as I am open to your comments and questions. No offense taken, but you’ll understand that I may get sarcastic or irritated sometimes, and that will only enrich the discussion, I hope.
- “Men are NOT superior to women” in Islam, I repeat it. If there is any controversial verse in Quran, then it’s the one you mentioned. Beating women is one of the top topics put in anti-Islamic websites.
Let me first explain that Quran is written in Arabic, and this language is so rich in meanings, that one word without vocalization can be read in many ways, thus having many meanings, so wonder how misleading can translation be sometimes. This happens with Quran too. Did you know that all Muslims around the world pray in Arabic? If that should tell you anything, it indicates the importance of understanding Quran in its original language.

So, for verse 4.34, the original verse says that men are “qawwamun” over women. The very strict translation of this word is NOT by any means ’superior’. Another translation of that verse would be “Men are [qawwamun] over women, because Allah has given the one more than the other, and because they support them from their means.” Now what has Allah given to men more than women, that somehow gives them a plus over them you think? I personally see this as physical strenght, nothing more; and it’s this strenght that makes it an obligation in our religion (and also traditions) that men sustain women, especially that women are given the primordial role of giving birth. Once again, let’s not take the example of Western societies where women work and give birth and still sustain themselves, okay? [Even though that's not a rare thing in our societies either.]

As you can see, this verse does not justify beating women at all, and the physical strenght I personally understand by “qawwaamun” is not enough to give any man any kind of superiority over women.

“I pose this question to you, if there was a Muslim woman who had a PHd and earned 10 times as much as her husband, would she have authority over him because she is superior to him and spending her wealth to maintain him?”

That said, I don’t see that wealth or physical strenght or anything else can give any gender the right to feel/act superior on the other, man or woman.

“I don’t understand this comment. What do you really think you could do? Are you not going to prepare my dinner? Are you not going to do my laundry? Are you not going to look after my children? Are you going to withhold sex from me?”

I don’t know you, and I am not married yet to know what a woman can do to a man in general to address some problem between them. But I so do believe that between couples, and with the intimacy a relationship such as marriage can have, both parts get to know the other and how to deal with them when problems arise. If some Muslim men tend to ‘think’ with their ‘hands’ and beat their wives, Islam is here to draw red lines for them. And I should stress on something here: “Islam is not ALLOWING beating women, it’s LIMITING it”. As in ‘the thing already existed, and was very frequent, that Islam came to put an end to it’.

And I would also love to mention that Quran came down to address issues related to the past, present and the future, we Muslims believe; and to my understanding, this very particular issue of beating concerning the past, and Islam did really solve the problem back then. But what to do to some ignorant Muslim men? [Although beating is not restricted to Muslim men alone, do we agree here?]

One more thing before I move to your other question: Never EVER judge Islam based on what Muslims do, always seek the answer in Quran and the prophet’s sayings, if you are really interested in knowing the truth. And I see this is what you are doing John, I appreciate that a lot.

“If you and I were married, and I have the absolute right to control you and indeed physically or emotionally torture you, I can promise you would not be able to “treat” me any way other than the manner in which I wished. You would be physically scared of me, you’d have no legal, religious or social recourse, and this would cause you to submit to my every whim.”

I hope that what I said above explains that the position of men and women in Islam is not illustrated with this case you are giving as an example.

“I’m sorry Lalla, but here you are 100% wrong. In my heart I am 100% gender neutral. I evaluate each individual person’s value on this planet according to the same set of values. But I find it interesting to understand that in your heart you cannot comprehend that men exist who actually believe this. It is not “just talk”, it is truth. Having said that I would LOVE to better understand the “semantics” you perceive to be masking my perception of reality. In other words I welcome you to convince me that I am indeed wrong.”

John, I don’t aim to show you that you are wrong, AT ALL. And I hope you respect my opinion too, and don’t judge it as ‘totally wrong’. Who said I don’t understand that there are some men out there that take women as their equals? Whatever makes you guys happy. I personally wouldn’t love to be treated as a man, and would love to be considered as a woman in everything. BUT as I might have said previously, this does not suggest any superiority or inferiority. If man#woman, that simply doesn’t meant manwoman. We are simply different, in our physical structures (!), as in our way of thinking, absolutely everything!
Should I go on explaining that a little bit more?

“Hmmm… perhaps we should do an article together in which you take the position that women are not equal and I take the position that women are equal. That would be a fascinating and stimulating conversation! But I digress…”

That will be very interesting! This discussion is actually getting larger and larger, and I might neglect some important detail or another, so your idea sounds really interesting. Comments are not practical for such discussions.

“I worship no deity. As a result of making that public statement does it diminish your respect for me?”

Oh my! NO! I wanted to add something about atheists and all the other non-worshiping groups, but I couldn’t rephrase the sentence. Please bear in mind that English is not my native language, it’s only my 4th. So before we get into linguistic misunderstandings, always consider the possibility that I used a word instead of another, or that I lack of vocabulary. And I know from experience that even typos can cause some catastrophes. [Imagine that I tell someone "say hell to your family", meaning "hello" obviously! LOL]

Your question reminds me of a remark I forgot to add in my first comment: the scholar in the video has NO right to call non-Muslims ‘infidels’. Please refer to my request to never judge Islam based on what Muslims do/say, including scholars and myself.

“In your mind did you just label me an “infidel”? Be honest! If so, you do not actually believe that you and I are the same.”

I am actually reading your comment as I am replying, so HA! I just partially answered your question above. And NO, I do not consider you as an infidel, it truly didn’t even cross my mind, and I don’t even have the right to ask you what religion/non-religion you belong to. And my very own idea/principle of us being the same, is not based on the similarity between the deities we might be worshiping, but it’s based on the same (I believe) standards of good and justice that we all might have.

If a Muslim considers someone as an infidel/non-believer, they are actually committing a huge sin in Islam, because only Allah know what’s in His creatures’ hearts, we believe.

“Au contraire! I believe it is a symptom of the larger problem. You may label it whatever you like, but what I see is a mechanism instituted to control women. I think of it the following way:…”

Was what you expressed at this point your own opinions/perceptions of the veil, or someone else’s words?
May I ask that we have this whole issue of the veil in another comment, or blog entries debate? I insist on discussing it, I do not want to let this detail go.

“Now, back to the equality issue. Let’s say for a second that I am a handsome man (OK, I know that I’m not… but can we pretend? :-)). If you and I were sitting down over a cup of coffee why should you get the pleasure of seeing my attractiveness, and I not get the same benefit? In other words, what right do women have to stare at and fantasize about attractive men and why don’t men have the same rights?”

Because you suppose the Islamic veil is black and covers the whole body, right? Let’s get back to that later! Besides this being another whole topic (even if, au contraire :), you consider it related to beating women), it’s late in my end and I should go to bed (because I want to, not because my ‘owner’ ordered me to ;)].

That said, sorry to break the record of the longest comment on your blog ;), thanks for the ‘healthy debate’, and I will be back! [Allah willing.]

“As far as the e-mail issue is concerned, thanks for letting me know as I’ve now fixed that problem! It’s been broken since I started this blog well over a year ago and no one has ever mentioned it before now. ;-)”

You’re welcome!
@JasonJ: I hope you take the time to read my answers to John, should you have any questions, I’ll be glad to answer.

@John: I can now see 16 comments on this page, but there are more -my last one included- that I can’t see. I told you in the email you never received that I emptied my cache and refreshed this page hundreds of times but in vain. Let’s see if this continues tomorrow.
I am using FireFox by the way, and it makes your blog look all messy [or is it my old screen! :(].

@Derek Wong: You probably meant ‘the prejudices Americans have’. And believe me, beating is unpleasant to everyone, so don’t go thinking it’s acceptable in our religion, cultures or traditions.

I’m calling it a day now! See you!

A few comments:

• I have read much of the Quran (in English translation of course). I am of the opinion that what the man in this video is stating is one fair and accurate interpretation.
• The bottom line here is that Islam specifically allows wife-beating. How much, how little, or for what reason, is irrelevant. The principle behind it is that husbands are superior to their wives and therefore not only allowed, but encouraged to “keep them in line” even to the extent of physical force if necessary.
• This video is not some bigoted rant. It is an actual Islamic clerics opinion, and one that I am absolutely certain is shared by millions of Muslims and therefore cannot be defined in any way as “propoganda”. For that reason I will never remove it from this blog.
• When the entire Islamic community can come together and make a central decision regarding this issue it will negate the need for this debate to be waged.

John

“This person is insane and should be hanged.”

WOW! Are you serious?
Even though I, too, think his interpretation is misleading, I wouldn’t go that far to ask/wish for him to be hanged. If everyone of us does each time a disagreement arises, imagine how the world would be. No need to imagine, the world is being like that, partially, now.

I don’t agree about removing the video, it’s giving us a solid ground for discussion.

“Let’s say for a second that I am a handsome man (OK, I know that I’m not… but can we pretend? :-)).”

I disagree with the above statement, as, I’m sure, your wife does!!

You weirdo!

OK this person has obviously been consuming a whole lot of drugs IMHO.

Islam does not allow any person to abuse any other person, least of all one spouse to another. The prophet said “the best of you are the best to your wives” and he also said “I can not imagine that one of you beats his wife like an animal.” Also, it is sinful for a person to strike another person such that it leaves a bruise including a man to his wife. Now how hard can you really hit someone in that case? Simply put, men to NOT have a religious license for domestic violence. I have been Muslim all my life, attended numerous sermons, and have never heard such drivel as what you’re basing your opinion of Islam on.

As for your interpretation of Quran 4:34 as you translated “Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them,” this honestly is such an obvious case of poor translation. the word you use as authority is more like a degree responsibility and the other word superior should be translated more like “to excel” so that it should read:

“Men have a degree over women because God has made one to excel other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them.”

There are numerous verses that proscribe for the equality of men and women in the eyes of God, please read the Quran as a book, not a list of quotes. I am running out of time, but I would like to invite you to email me and talk about Islam some more if you like. Take care,

Omar

hey john, I would not like to comment on Islam . But as far as this video goes forget Islam no religion permits and no holy book has ever mentioned tht u can beat any human or ur spouse for that matter……….
this video is very misleading …… & its very sad to know tht this thing is being practised……..

“Let him who is without sin cast the first stone….”

….applies to both sides in this debate, and to all religions.

“Judge not that ye be not judged.”

Who are we to castigate others? Just mere human beings. God will work his ways with us and in his own time.

Those 2 quotes are from the Bible, but I’m sure the Quran has its own versions of them.

We can watch such videos / argue vociferously / read and quote the Quran or Bible / kill each other over ideology, till kingdom come.

The sad fact is, in a large majority of societies, an improvement in women’s status will never happen.

I know this is an “old” post, but I thought I’d add one quote I find quite fitting (and short!)

“Islam is perfect, Muslims are not”.

Peace!

I am a Pakistani Muslim & let me tell u There is no such thing in Islam.And by the way Islam was the first religion to give proper rights to women.Some people which are lost from the actual path of Islam do such things.

I have recently discovered this blog and enjoy the articles I find here. Please allow me to add to this discussion.

“Specialisation is for insects…” is fine if you look at only simple things. But in the case of sciences, you have to specialise to be an expert. A layperson (or laymuslim) like me cannot give a qualified opinion on what is written in the Quran. This is because I do not know the background to the revelation of a specific verse. Islamic scholars study the Quran and teachings of the Prophet PBUH for many years in order to reach the level where they know when a verse was revealed to the Prophet PBUH, as well as the conditions surrounding the revelation of the verse. The Quran and the sayings of the Prophet PBUH are a science in their own right.

Good Muslim scholars are held in high esteem for the knowledge they can impart to their audiences. I have been to many lectures and know that you cannot take a Quranic verse in isolation and form your own conclusions. Many books have been written by qualified authors about the subjects raised in the Quran and are a good starting point to understanding the Quran.

Islam teaches us to seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave. This leads to your developing an understanding of the world you live in, and in so doing appreciate the Greatness of Allah who created everything from the mightiest galaxies to the tiniest insects.