I’ve searched the annals (he, he… he said anal) of the Internet to find the two greatest video arguments I could find, one for the existance of a supreme diety, one against.
In the end, at least to me, it all seems to boil down to a simple philosophical decision. Is it possible that everything known to mankind simply exists? Or is an explanation required as to why?
EDIT: Incidentally, it is coincidence that this post comes immediately after the report of an Athiest being banned from YouTube. I had written this article at least a week before it was published, but posted the other one in real time as the news was breaking.
Here now is a compilation from a number of prominent believers, on the existance of God:
And here Dr. Richard Dawkins’, Oxford professor, on the myth of God:
You can debate all you like,but “God” still exists whether you acknowledge him/her or not. The only real question is Who is God? If you can’t see the answer trhen you truly are blind!!! Where does a circle end?? Peace is coming peolple – embrace it now!!! We are all God.
What about people who can not stand to suffer and eventually committed suicide? Did not God know the end of their lives who would commit suicide (surely go to hell?), Why is God still let them be born into this world?
Adding to that, think of it this way: how long does it take you to calculate something like 1521.13^332 in your head? A long time. God does this instantly. He is the most powerful computer in existence.
Also, think about how energy can’t be created or destroyed, the Law of Conservation of Energy. How else can black holes be created with supposed infinite density.
How else can the first matter have been created?
Was it always there?
How did time begin?
Can you imagine not thinking anything when you die? How do you view the world? What would it feel like if you had no perspective and time just stopped?
You would have no viewpoint on the world and just go away.
That, I believe, is IMPOSSIBLE.
We are souls and souls go to either heaven or hell.
Charlotte Guy,
Of course we wouldn’t care about all the ants on the sidewalk. But God cares about each and every one of us because he is NOT human. We are so we can’t even process each person. God has INFINITE RAM, INFINITE processing power, and INFINITE brainpower and control. He is omnipotent. We can’t even grasp the concept of that.
You say use your brains, of course we can’t believe it because we can’t COMPREHEND it!
Oh, and John, great job setting up a debate. ;)
I have read the bible cover to cover twice, attended many churches in various denominations since I was a child. I’ve also talked to priests, pastors, deacons and many who are solidly entrenched in their religions.
I believe very strongly that churches exist solely for the purpose of making money. They keep people coming back by spreading guilt and fear.
My 6 year old daughter asked me recently if Santa Claus is real. I looked her in the eyes and said yes he is and he loves you. He knows when you are good and will reward you for being good. I then realized that this is exactly what all the churches in the world are saying to us. They then pass the collection plate around and tell you to give with your hearts for Jesus.
I do not believe in God any more than I believe in Santa Claus. I believe we live in a remarkable universe that can almost entirely be explained by science.
For those bible thumpers out there, picture this… imagine you are the creator of the entire infinite universe. Trillions of planets that likely support life each with billions of living things on them (unless you are Catholic and believe we are at the center of the universe alone). Would you care about the day to day happenings of one individual? Do you as a person care about the ants on the sidewalk?
I consider myself a very intelligent guy; 2 college degrees and a significant amount of knowledge in religion (many types). How can any sane adult believe in an invisible omnipotent being that helps us with our problems. I recall somewhere that we were given free will. If God is medalling in our affairs then it’s not really free will is it.
People, use your brains! There is no God. My life is still complete because I love my family and want to spend as much time enjoying them as I can while I am alive.
ok i didn’t watch the video but i find the comment on limitless time interesting . . .
the biggest problem with the concept of limitless time is that the 2nd law of thermodynamics suggests that even if time was limitless that matter would lose all its energy anyways. so here perhaps you could suggest that we just happen to live in the right moment in the history of time, but the problem with that is it requires time to be finite because any “right” time would have an infinite amount of time existing before that, which of course is more than enough time for the 2nd law of thermodynamics to run its course. So how are you going to account for the constant reenergization of matter in a universe of limitless time? Perhaps the big bang? but then what about the first big bang, where did that get its energy. I cant accept the idea of an endless cycle because frankly i dont think an infinite regress of actually occurring events is a physical possibility.
so how are you going to account both for the creation of matter and for its energization?
personally i think the creation of matter is a logical impossibility, even for God. this is in part why I find theistic idealism to be the only completely reasonable metaphysics, ala Berkeley.
Bob,
Do you really think that preaching to these idiots is going to make a difference to them ?
Randy,
Are you really as stupid, ignorant and bigoted as your comment shows ? Or is it just an act ?
Jeremy,
Of all the comments that you made, the last one is the only one that makes sense.
The rest only show profound ignorance.
Regards
AC
Jon,
Exactly what nuthouse are you housed in ? And how many times did you fail 1st grade ? And “truly” is spelled with one l, not two, just as “mearly” is not a word in the English language, but “nearly ” is.
Regards
AC
Boy, and you have on good authority, right ? Too bad S. Augustine didn’t …
You know that ignorance kills more than the sword ? Probably not.
No, it ain’t…
In answer to your question, John – Yes, God exists.
Robert,
I absolutely agree with you! It irritates me when people walk around claiming God gives us all free will…thus, he exist, but does not interfere to resolve suffering, stop murders, rapes etc…..I personally feel most humans are weak and they feel the NEED to believe in something in order to find comfort through life’s miseries etc…
the universe is infinite, therefore anything with the remotest chance of happening will happen an infinite number of times
The question is not wether god exists but what is god? Think of it this way imagine nothing, not just a lack of atoms, but of space, time, everything. That nothing would have no existance. It could not exist. Therefore something must exist however intangable that thing is it would exist It might be as intangable as a word for instance. That point of existance would create everything. Every ancient religion agrees god created himself, and the creator god is everything, not mearly powerfull. The argument sets up two sides who want to stand apart from each other, if you were trully seeking the truth, you would understand art and science are just different ways of looking at the same thing. it is bad science to ignore inconsistencies and say I have the answer now. And it seems to me to be unchristian to say my interpritation is the only posible one. There is more than one Gospel.
You are correct.
I have been to Jeruselem and thus am somewhat of an expert on this subject of GOD. If there were no greater power than where did all of this come from. It takes only a small amount of thought to realize that it could not have just happened. No matter how many monkeys type in random access to typewriters, then never do you see even a paragraph of logical prose.
Simply put, when you pass, you will see GOD and it will be obvious to you. All of your questions will be answered. Don’t waste your time worrying about it now.
thanks,
Jeremy
Robert,
I believe you have examined the concept of free will to the point of excess. Your dizzying logic in this case is simply unnecessary.
Just because each person’s intellect is the sum of all of their previous experiences does not mean that every single one of us cannot exercise free will. Furthermore, the fact that our actions are influenced or limited by our emotions and environment makes us no less capable of changing our situation.
Why must you question, “why is the world as it is”? The world simply is. Have you considered the possibility that “good” and “bad” are merely adjectives ascribed by humans regarding “actions” and “reactions”? Things happen, and I react to them. Some times I cause things to happen and others must react.
I am no better than a lion, monkey or flea. We are all functioning organisms reacting to our environment. But I am different because the complexity and range of my actions and reactions is on a scale that is magnitudes beyond what they are capable of, and because I live in a society which has established much more complex rules regarding individual behavior.
Anyway, as interesting of a sidebar as this is, it really doesn’t relate to the topic of this post which is to pursue the concept of the existence of God. Whether or not we have “free will” can in no way be construed as evidence on either side of the argument.
Take care,
John
Randy,
I appreciate the fact that you believe in God. At the same time, your comments here really do nothing to advance the question “Does God exist”, they only share your beliefs regarding passages of the bible.
I do take exception to the following statement:
This we all know to be patently false. You are seeking something far more valuable than fame or money – eternal salvation.
No Christian should ever make the claim that they aren’t seeking anything because they have been charged to spread the gospel, and to believe in God, or go to hell. For this reason people have a rationale for suspicion based on the question “what are you getting out of this?”
Atheistic scientists or philosophers however can truly make the claim that they seek to gain nothing by the pursuit of knowledge regarding proving or disproving God, so this is a major hurdle for Creationists to overcome.
John
Who do you think has free will? You might say everyone; I would say no one. The Wikipedia Encylopedia describes free will …. The question of free will is whether, and in what sense, rational agents exercise control over their actions and decisions. Addressing this question requires understanding the relation between freedom and cause, and determining whether or not the laws of nature are causally deterministic.
To the average person that is probably correct. But that in reality barley touches the answer. Free (Not in bondage to another) will (Faculty by which a person decides or conceives himself as deciding upon & initiating action).
At this point, I would guess that I have eliminated 95% of the world’s population as not having free will. If you react instantly with an emotional response to ANY situation without correction, you do not have free will. I would say that raises it to 99% of the population without free will.
At this point, consider the importance of free will. Without it all the ugliness and badness in the world is explained. Without it what is the difference between you and ALL the ugly predators that have inhabited the planet since life started here. You might say I am good and believe in God or I am a good atheist who wants the world to be better. But without free will, you are only a pawn/player in this world of ugliness.
If you are an adult you have been in affect severely brainwashed by everything that has taken place in your life. Your country of origin, culture, parents, friends, religion, education, books read, films, art, music, radio, TV, newspapers etc have all played a major part in your identity and how you view the world and your existence.
Imagine that you suddenly came into existence with no previous identity or memory but you could think intelligently, read write and talk. You would have NO preconceptions at all. If in that theoretical situation and with free will what you make of the world and civilisation, what obvious conclusions would you come to? What would your first impressions of the world be?
Would it be a world of intelligence, harmony, love or the complete opposite? Would each individual be concerned and want the best for every other individual. Would all share lovingly? Would there be no anger, hatred, murder, torture. Would there be an absence of greed? Would there be an absence of nonsense puerile religions? The answer is obvious. You would find a world of chaos with an awesome history of violence, pain and suffering.
THINK, in your theoretical uncontaminated position could you possibly say that any one of them had free will? Do you think that the person who designs and makes nuclear weapons has free will? Do you think that the men and women in Russia who make the hundreds of thousands of Kalashnikov rifles that are used to kill have free will? Do the millions of men and women in the west who buy their pampered pets expense food while people starve have free will? Does the leader of a country or the head of a religious organisation living in luxury while others have only poverty with no hope have free will? Does the suicide bomber who blows himself up and everyone in his vicinity and thinks that he is going to paradise to be served by servile virgins have free will? Do the millions who smoke, over indulge in alcohol or are addicted to drugs have free will? Do ALL the six billion plus people on this planet who go about their daily lives and cannot see anything clearly have free will? The list could go on and on and I’m sure that you would be in there somewhere.
If just one person said to me..this world is ugly and worthless and if I could not change it completely I would without pain to anyone remove it I would know two things. The first is that the person would be intelligent. The second is that while he might not have complete free will he/she would be more than half way there.
If you reply that, the answer is a man called Jesus or Muhammad not only have you not understood any of the previous and have no free will but you also have no intelligence.
Why is the world as it is? Why do people cling on to the lie that there is more good than bad when it is obviously not so. Why do people think that they have free will when they do not? That is catch22. Only by having free will can you know and understand the answer to that question. If you do not want to know, you do not have free will and you are the same as the lion, tiger, monkey, dog, flea etc.. What a sorry uncorrectable state you are in.
Robert
Robert,
Thanks for your comments. Before everyone starts picking out individual points of Robert’s statement, I’ll ask that you do NOT do that because it will be a fruitless task. Instead, let’s focus on the larger concept.
It’s interesting that you do indeed believe that the universe was “created” by some sort of (presumably) omnipotent entity, but reject the notion that it was the biblical God. I know of other people who feel the same way, but personally I cannot rationalize that.
It seems to me that you are recognizing the existence of a “god” figure as creator, but choosing not to believe/obey any earthly doctrine of worship. I have no problem with this view, but as far as the discussion at hand I am forced to generalize that you do indeed believe in God, just not in the standard human interpretation of who/what he is and what he wants of us.
On the other side of the equation are people who would argue strongly that there is no way the universe was designed/made. That the argument about things being “too perfectly put together” holds no water when you are talking about an infinite amount of time.
My opinion is that we must each develop an understanding of the concept of limitless time and it’s effect on occurrences of randomness before we can choose to believe in God.
If one accepts that a “1 in a quadrillion” chance will predictably occur every quadrillion times, then limitless time would obviously render that not only possible but predictable. It’s not a large leap to then suggest that the universe has reconfigured it’s self an unimaginable number of times before the current instance, and this serves as an alternate explanation for why we exist. If one cannot accept that as a possibility then the only other alternative seems to be creationism.
Take care,
John
There is no doubt at all in my mind that the universe and everything in it was designed and made/fabricated. Martin Rees (cosmologist) said, “What is remarkable is that atoms have assembled into entities which are somehow able to ponder their originsâ€Â. What he should have said is “From all the material that came into existence very soon after the theoretical Big Bang it is impossible for life to startâ€Â. “Unintelligent atoms will always be that no matter what combinations they are joined inâ€Â. The question is.. What is the profile of the designer?
The profile of God is of an eternal entity morally perfect and wise with absolute power to do whatever it/he desires and is the maker of everything. It /he desires/demands to be loved, admired, worshiped, knelt before and obeyed for reasons of the preceding qualities. Consider how puerile this is. If you were the father of a young boy or girl you would not say ‘Because I am wiser than you and can do many things that you can not and was responsible for you being here kneel down and worship me’. If you did so, you would be mad. That is absolutely true of the biblical God. Open your eyes and think. At this point, I should point out that the biblical Satan desires the same as God that is for you to kneel down, worship, and admire him.
Worship (OE weordhscipe (WORTH, -SHIP)) worthiness, merit, recognition, honour & respect, reverent homage or service paid to God, adoration or devotion, adore as divine etc, etc.
For the purpose of this discussion let us suppose that an entity (God or whoever..the whoever is very important) designed and made/fabricated the Universe and everything in it. Remembering that he is perfect in every way; would he want or desire to make anything that was flawed? Or being God would not all of his works be perfect as he supposedly is? Consider your body. How extremely fallible it is in so many ways. Your reproductive areas (the penis, vagina etc) are right next to the part of your body that excretes waste matter (faeces). Would you design it like that? If you were living from before 200 years in the past how disgusting it must have been. Even now if society broke down and you had no soap or toilet paper think of how disgusting and smelly you would be. You live on a ball of very hot iron and molten rock with a thin unstable crust. It has a thin atmosphere and is continuously bombarded by radiation from the sun which if it was not for the earth’s magnetic field would destroy all life. This ball (the planet earth) travels at 18 miles each second through the black vacuum of space in a circle round the sun. Consider how bizarre and grotesque this is. Ask yourself; is the mind of God bizarre and grotesque?
The whole of Gods creation is ugly and flawed, any intelligent person can see that. Consider that it might be deliberate maliciousness on Gods part.
To be evil, malicious, harmful and a liar means that you are flawed (mad). Would a morally perfect entity (God) make anything that could become so? And even if he did, would he not remove it instantly if it did?
Putting aside the naïve, puerile fairy story of Adam and Eve and the garden of Eden consider the free will argument that religious people use to excuse the badness/ugliness of man and consider your position. A person that lies, cheats, or is malicious or amoral HAS NO FREE WILL. A mad flawed person does not have intelligence (understanding) or free will. He/she might be clever (most successful criminals are) but does not have free will. There is no logic in the argument of free will. Does the lion, tiger, leopard, eagle, crocodile, and shark, have free will when they stalk, kill and devour their prey? Does the suicide bomber, the person/soldier killing, raping or torturing, the embezzler, all the ones exploiting others, the thugs and uncaring criminals have free will? No, they do not. They do not have intelligence (understanding) or free will. According to the so-called Holy writing who is responsible? Where does the buck stop? If you are religious, the answer is God. He is supposedly both all-powerful and perfect in righteousness. How and why does this supposedly perfect entity for a microsecond allow all the evil and badness?
Consider that we are made in Gods image (Genesis 1:27). If we are corruptible and flawed..so is God. If God has perfect wisdom and is all powerful (as we attribute to him) he would have known and understood ALL the possibilities that lay ahead. Could you for one moment turn aside if you had the ability to stop a human being from being tortured? God has allowed thousands of years of lies, suffering, torment, degradation, torture, sadness, murder, slavery. NOTHING in this universe or elsewhere can excuse that. If he exists he is a mad, ugly, a criminal beyond belief.
Why do you not open your eyes?
Pause.
Now you might give the perfect stupid, worthless and puerile reply…God moves in mysterious ways his wonders to perform. You might say..I have faith. Do you have faith that God will stop you from being burgled? Do you have faith that God will stop you from getting cancer and heal you when you do? Do you have faith that you will not be attacked at any time? Do you have faith that the world is good when it obviously is not? Do you have faith that God will guide all your footsteps and protect you? Do you have faith that the meek will inherit the earth..smile? Do you have faith that Allah will take you to paradise after you blow yourself up and everyone else in your vicinity? Do you have faith that all the bad and evil people will get there comeuppance? Do you have faith that a fictional person will give you an eternity in paradise when you die? Do you have faith when you are dieing of hunger that it is Gods good will? Do you have faith that when you are old and alone and your body hardly functions and your memory is almost gone that it is Gods will for you? Do you have faith when your child/husband/wife is taken from you that it is Gods will?
If you do, you are like Alice living in a fairytale wonderland.
Robert robert77@fsmail.net
Randy,
I couldn’t have said it better. I too will pray. They can disagree, but they can’t stop an Almighty God.
When God created Adam and Eve, they were both perfect in every way. It is my belief that God didn’t create sin. By creating a free will, we had the potential for sin. When Adam ate of the apple, sin was initiated by man. Christ entered the world as a sinless man. This time in a man, there would be no sin found in Him.
Because of being sinless, it allowed him to choose to bear our sins. He accepted the task of being the sin sacrifice for the world. The sacrifices of the animals in the past would only atone for a specific sin. The amazing thing about Christ, was that he could have walked away from the cross at any time. If you remember from your days in the church, Pilate was surprised to find that Jesus was already dead.
When Christ said it was finished, he had met the requirements and chose to give up his life. The amazing thing, is this was the very moment when the sacrifice was to be given for the people in the temple by the High Priest. The religious people of that time were the ones that crucified Him in their own self righteousness. That is why we as Christians must always be on guard for our own self righteousness, because we are just as capable of using the Law to condemn by preaching the letter of the law and not the spirit of it.
That is why Jesus gave the parable of the Good Samaritan, the letter of the Law said they could not associate with the Samaritan, but that was not God’s intent. We are to Love God and Love our Neighbors. It even says we are to love those hate us. Only God can judge and bring judgment. While we feel that Mother Theresa was a wonderful person, God says our righteousness is as filthy rags.
As men we compare ourselves to a standard which we have created. We can see that she far exceed the expectations that we have for humanity, but by God’s standard she would be doomed without Christ. Christ gave us the commission to go into all the world and preach the Gospel. I gain nothing by telling you about Christ. I seek no fame or money. I do this to warn others at I have been instructed. It is very easy to become like Jonah and say let the people of Ninevah die, but God will not allow us to do that. I will keep you all in my prayers and may God soften you hearts.
Wow, I was traveling today and I missed a LOT of discussion on this post… :-)
Deborah, you were right to correct me when I made the generalized statement that “life sucks”. What I should have said is that I personally find that life generally sucks. I’ll leave it at that.
Randy – is it your position that God would be unable to have created a perfect man and woman who were both without sin? Because it is my understanding, after decades spent in the Methodist church, that God is capable of anything. And if that is true, could he not have given us free will and also never have invented sin? Mother Teresa had both free will and was 99% without sin and I’m sure God was happy to receive her love. And Jesus was without sin and God was happy to receive his love.
Ruth – there is an alternate social theory as to why people do what we define as “good”, “right” or “just”. It was proposed by Socrates and his student Plato hundreds of years before Christ. Essentially, people wish to live in a “good” and “just” society because it benefits everyone. You do not need the fear of God to understand that if everyone behaves like a heathen you end up with a chaotic state of mutually assured self destruction. So society imprints these concepts on it’s members from a very young age through teaching, peer pressure and emulation. Certain tribes of the American Indians are a good example of this. They lived very peaceful lives in harmony with nature within societies that were based on concepts such as “honor”, “loyalty” and “peace” (Until the “God-fearing” white man slaughtered them!). Hopefully that somewhat explains why people would still choose the same lifestyle even without religion.
John
Deborah, that wasn’t my point. I was wondering what is it that makes right, right? Isn’t it a moral code written in our conscience by God? You would help an old lady or return a wallet because of the preciousness of others. Because we’re made in His likeness, and He has told us to do unto other as we want done to us. Doesn’t sound selfish at all. But here’s the deal. I’m not going to convince you to believe, because you’ve already made up your mind. This argument has gone on for generations. People way smarter then me have debated this question over and over. For me, I do believe that God exists. Do I have every answer to all these hypothetical questons? no, but for me God and faith makes my life better. That was my choice, what you decide is up to you, but I know God promises those who truely seek Him, will be found by Him. So, instead of asking me if God exists, ask God. In you’re own way, just ask Him if He’s real to show Himself to you. Sounds probably crazy, but what does it hurt.
Ruth:
“…so what happens if I live my life believing in God and you don’t and I end up wrong. I’ve then lived a life of love, and helping people when they needed a hand, and I would of had a good life, not wasted. But what if what I say is true. How will you end up?” What do you mean by “not wasted”? You mean, if you’ve done good and gone to heaven, then your life is “not wasted.” But if you’ve done good deeds and just flat-out died, your life was a waste. That’s an awfully selfish world view.
If your god is who he says he is, then we both end up in the same place. But you have done your good deeds under the pretense of reward. And I’d say that’s a false reason. But, of course, that’s just what I believe, right?
Ruth,
Only the truly religous would ask what’s the point in living a good life if there is no god? I know I’ve asked you this already: Do you really need someone looking over your shoulder to be “good”? If so, I want to stay away from you. Can you not do what is right because it is right and good for your fellow man as well as yourself? Can’t you be kind because you understand and empathize with someone else’s feelings? Wouldn’t you help a child or an old woman who was hurt because you should? If you found a wallet and no one was looking, would you take the money out of it or would you try to find the owner because you want to spread goodness in the world and because you’d want someone to do that for you?
Greg,
You make several good points. Specifically, the one about bringing up the story of a child who died of cancer. Why do that? Because it appeals to our emotions and that is what religion does. When a person can’t use logic, then use emotional appeals. Same with politics, yes?
I agree. You can and should follow a moral code without the promise of heaven or threat of hell.
Ruth:
If I were to sit in my car and watch a man beat a five year old into pulp and leave the child in the street to die, I would be sick. Damn sick.
Enough said about your god who “knows the future.”
Deborah, I too know many unhappy people of every religion or no religion. And the reason I’m writting is to see different view points. I find them very interesting. I’m not putting anyone down, just offering a diffrent view piont. I do wonder though, why is it that anyone tries to be a “good” person at all. If God doesn’t exist, if there’s no authority, no reason. What’s the point? Why not live with reckless abandon, and let all hell break loose. Why have laws? Somewhere, there has to be an authority, an absolute, or this world would be crazy.
Ha…nothing better than an upset churchie.
Look, if you want to believe in religion, than believe. Some of us feel that if God exists, and I’m aware of Pascel’s Wager, than it is absurd to think that he will judge our actions. As John says, why would he give us free will when we are obviously not responsible enough to use it…kind of like the death penalty. I like to think there is some form of existance after life, and maybe there is a supreme being…here is what he would say to me after I die:
SB: Well…what did you think?
Greg: Lots of beauty, but I saw many people suffer.
SB: Yeah…it’s pretty much luck of the draw.
I know that if God exists, he certainly has not chosen a specific religion as more correct than any other. Also, why in the world would he have an ego that requires people to worship him. The whole bible thing is contrived by men looking to take your money. It was written 300 years after Jesus died…and he was never a Christian, just the main character in a grand story.
Also…why bring up a sick child that died of cancer. Did you further your argument at all? Probably just a way to bring up scripture again…makes the rest of us laugh. I have friends and relatives that have died of cancer and they smiled at the end because they knew their suffering was about to end. Just because this child was brainwashed at an early age means nothing and it changed nothing…and I’m terribly sorry for your loss…but don’t bring up that stuff as it really is not relavant and it makes us all dumber by you saying it.
I know the risks, though I am confident your beliefs are incorrect. I lead a good life, one that follows most of the 10 Commandments (one of my neighbors is a pain and I use the lord’s name in vain all the time) becasue they are obvious…ever heard of Natural Law?
In the end, anything as smart as a Supreme Being or God would rather hang with me than have you follow him around praising him. I can offer much more interesting conversation. You guys are all the same and I’m betting someone has already filled the role that you would take.
Ah, jeez, Ann. This is why some people need religion. Are you jk with your statement about “If there is not a hell, then why even bother to live a good life.” Are you telling me you ONLY behave because you think someone is “watching you”? Are you “good” just so you’ll go to heaven. Sure sounds like it. Don’t you think that morality should come from within? Wouldn’t that make your value system a little bit stronger???
If the Bible says we come as a little child, it is because no man in his right mind can believe in a fairy tale. Only children can. One must be simple and niave to blindly accept and believe.
My question to the individual who believes that God should have created us so that we would only do His will, would not allow God to show His love towards us. He is a jealous God. If you are a parent, you would understand that nothing gives you more joy than having a child do the things that you have taught them out of love, not punishment. In the near future, we will have robots (robotics) that will do exactly what you say. Not out of Love, but out of our selfishness to meet or needs. God created Adam and Eve with a free will so that he could give and recieve love in a perfect world. However, by Adam sin entered into the world. Man was decieved by the devil into believing that he could be like God after eating from the tree. Sin is so powerful, that it spreads like a cancer, causing all living things to die. So God chose to show his love could go even further than our lack of love. He took on the challenge of sin and lived perfect life, so that His Son Jesus could be become the sacrifice for all the worlds sins. The bible says it pleased God to “crush Him” for our initquities. Yet, on that same note, those that don’t believe that God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, will be punished. It will please God to crush them and He will hear their cries and He will take no notice. If I were God and loved you enough to give you a free will and loved you enough to give you a second chance. I would have no remorse for those who reject my Son. Remember, few people die willingly for power, money, and or greed. But anyone, is capable of dying for something that they love. What do you love?
Sorry, John, I don’t agree that life sucks if you don’t believe.
I had a similar discussion on my blog. One of the other bloggers wrote this, which I thought was very nice:
I believe there is no God. Believing there is no God means the suffering I’ve seen in my family, and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn’t caused by an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn’t bothered to help or is just testing us, but rather something we all may be able to help others with in the future. No God means the possibility of less suffering in the future. Believing there is no God gives me more room for belief in family, people, love, truth, beauty, sex and all the other things I can prove and that make this life the best life I will ever have.
That pretty much sums up how I feel, too. This is heaven to me. No, it’s not perfect, but life is incredibly beautiful, even in times of hardship and sadness. It is an amazing stroke of luck that we are all here and able to communicate symbolically.
When I was an undergraduate, I struggled with the whole concept of free will. At that time, I still was Christian, just not a follower of any particular religion. As an agnostic, the free will issue is a little different. It is now “instinct” –what is instinctive and “preprogrammed” into us? In what ways are we hard-wired to behave or predisposed to make certain choices, if at all?
You make a lot of assumptions here. Living “without God”
This is an incredibly arrogant assumption: “God is not some big ogre getting a laugh at human suffering.” How would you know the mind of God when even you admit that you have to have “faith” that he exists? If life here on earth is any indication of what “god” is like, then he is capricious, vindictive and mean-spirited. If man (and woman) is created in “His” image, then we’re in big trouble….
You assume that I believe in the divine nature of the Bible. I do not. I do not accept this text as sacred for many reasons. So, with me at least, you cannot make an argument rooted in the Bible when I don’t recognize that as law or even as valid.
Religion has been at the heart of nearly every war in this world.
You also assume that one cannot find peace, hope and happiness without belief in God. That is false and small-minded thinking. God does not bring me hope and peace. Only I can bring that to myself. I know many unhappy, tortured Christians. Santa Claus can’t bring me peace and happiness either, yet Santa and God have a lot in common.
Finally, we know that there is a force called gravity. We can PROVE that. We do not know there is a force called God. We canNOT prove that. We just happen to put all the things we don’t understand about the universe (i.e. how it began) into a concept called “God.” It is easier that way and brings many of us comfort. I understand why you would want to believe, and I’m not slamming your religion. Perhaps you’d like to open your mind to the views of others.
I have one other comment. So what… so what happens if I live my life believing in God and you don’t and I end up wrong. I’ve then lived a life of love, and helping people when they needed a hand, and I would of had a good life, not wasted. But what if what I say is true. How will you end up?
The Man,
I appreciate your concern over the millions whom have passed on and may have never heard of “Jesus” per say. Christ is also concerned for these individuals. And He states that even by looking at creation and the complexities of the universe one would know that God existed. He also commands people who do believe to tell others, like what we’re doing here. As far as all the people whom you are concerned over, I do not know thier hearts, I am not God. How would I know what was on their mind when they passed on. I am not trying to divide anyone over a religion. I believe it is a personal decision between you and you’re maker.
Greg,
First of all you may not have a few years, second your ” if “is a very big word, Because ” if ” there is a God and like you said you lived a good life by his definition, which means he would have given rules ( like the ten comandments ) and you get an invite to where ? Heaven ? Where did you get an idea there is one or even something after this life? If there is not a hell then why even bother to live a good life. You must believe there is a consequence. As far as living with churchies lucky for you he promises us new bodies and perfect spirits, Let me tell you a story of a little boy of five years old born with bone cancer fed by a tube in his stomach his whole life, lived in bed, he was dying and his dad was carrying him back and forth across the room as he slept, he woke up and said “daddy can I take a walk with Jesus”, and his dad said sure you can , he smiled really big and died. After witnessing something as innocent as that how can you deny there is a God. The Bible says unless we come as a little child we can’t not enter the kingdom of God. He also tell us we need faith the size of a mustard seed. He knows thats how much our minds a capable of. We can not even comprehind the mind of God but if I was to error in my thinking I would hope it would be on his side because he not only promises Heaven but he warns against Hell. Where is you invitation to? Romans 3:23 says For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life…But God commended his love for us that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Romans 5:8. If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness, 1 John 1:9
Ruth,
I’m sure you know that the gravity reference is a bit of an exaggeration because obviously you actually can see it, measure it, etc. I understand your point that we cannot explain everything, but actually 99% of people will not believe in anything they cannot see, or prove exists. Religion is the only (bar none) concept that humans actively ask one another to believe despite the complete absence of proof or fact. Indeed it is the process of believing despite the absense of fact which is so cherished by the community.
I also respectfully disagree that free will is not a ticket to hell. If God were to have created man as a perfect being, with perfect knowledge and without sin the world would be… well, perfect! We would love one another, take care of one another, and not need 10 Commandments because God’s perfect creation doesn’t require “management”. It is only by the interjection of free will into the soul of man that he becomes imperfect and bad things begin to happen. So, from a Devil’s advocate point of view (no pun intended) if God really created and loves me why didn’t he make me without sin? I would trade free will for heaven any day of the week based on what I’ve heard about heaven.
As far as your point number 4 above, that is a philosophical deficiency from many people’s perspective. What you are saying is that Ghandi is rotting in Hell because he was not a Christian – even though by any other measure of a man he was one of the finest examples to have walked the planet. Also, the Billions of people who literally never heard of Jesus will burn for eternity because they have no way to accept something they’ve never heard of.
Finally, you are correct about life sucking if you don’t believe in God. It is much easier to accept tragedy if one can dismiss it as being “part of a greater plan” as opposed to viewing it as simply a curse of mortality.
John
Lets zoom ahead a few years to when I die…
If a religious god exists and I have led a good life by his definition (minus the whole jesus thing ’cause that’s obviously just a way to make money off of ignorant people), and I get the big invite to come on in…do you think I can turn it down?
There is no way I could handle being around all those churchies for an eternity.
I am not surprised that one would have a hard time believing in something that they cannot see, but then again I cannot see gravity, but would feel the consequences if I jump off a building. Spiritual truths are the same, you might not believe, but the consequences are still there. Free will is not a one-way ticket to hell. God is not some big ogre getting a laugh at human suffering. He made a way of escape if we would only choose it. Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” 1.) Recognize man sinful nature 2.) Penalty for sin is death (Romans 5:12 ” Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned”. 3.) Jesus paid the penalty (Romans 5:8 ” But God demonstrated His own love for us, in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.” 4.) Accept Christ (Romans 10:9 ” that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved”. So, you do have a choice. Right this moment you can make a free will choice to reject Christ or accept Him. There would be allot less suffering if man would live according to the Ten Commandments. If mankind could just grasp ten concepts the world would live in peace. And as to the comment about logic, it’s not a matter of logic. It’s a matter of faith, faith in man’s wisdom to solve everything, or faith in God. I personally feel it’s a sad existence to live your whole life void of hope and real peace. I’ve always wondered how people cope with tragedy without God. My uncle died 6 months ago of cancer. He sufferred greatly before he died, yet he had an inner peace through the whole ordeal, and I know without a shadow of a doubt that I will see my Uncle again someday, and it’s not because of the little green man, it’s because of Christ.
Ruth,
I don’t understand your logic here:
“I also think people don’t want to admit that there’s a God because then they become accountable for their actions.”
Why does one need an invisible, imaginary “man” watching over her in order to be “accountable for their actions”? That is weak. And, you may think people “don’t want to admit that there’s a God,” but how can one “admit” to believing in someone in which you cannot hear, see, smell or communicate with (I know, some have “communications” with god). It defies logic. I cannot tell you to believe in the little green man living under my house and then question your motives because you don’t believe.
Ruth,
Conceptually I have a little difficulty with reconciling the fact that God is both omnipotent and omnicient yet allows bad things to be done by people, or happen to people. It seems to me that the concept of free will being the “great equalizer” leaves a lot to be desired. I’ve heard this used to explain why bad things happen to people all of my life and from a variety of religious scholars and I’ve decided that this is a widely quoted yet incorrect interpretation of some biblical passages.
I, for one, would have preferred a life given to me without free will so long as I was always happy, provided for, and safe. Yet if there is a God, he doesn’t grant life in this manner. Instead each of us must toil, worry and suffer until the end of our days. Indeed, the only thing that free will gives man is the opportunity to buy a one way ticket to hell. So I would turn it around and ask what good does free will give mankind, as opposed to everyone being created with a divine set of beliefs and ideals which they would follow blindly?
There would be a lot less suffering and despair, and evil would not exist if God created us without free will. What more could we ask for?
John
Humanity was originally created with free will but without knowledge of good and evil. Morals. That all changed after Eden.
We weren’t made just to worship God. He made us for fellowship. He gave us a free will to make up own minds if we wanted to have a relationship with Him. What good would it have done Him to have made puppets without a free will. And just because God knows the future doesn’t mean He causes the future. We as humans can do a fine job on our own of messing up our lives, but it seems when things are all screwed up then we blame God. I also think people don’t want to admit that there’s a God because then they become accountable for their actions.
Does anyone else think that instead of a religious “God” there is just a Creator of the universe and life? Why would God create us, and let us live our entire lives just in order to worship him. And how does the idea of free will exsist if the bible predicts the future?
I simply believe in a higher power…or outside power. Call him what you want…its just the idea of a Religious God seems too silly and made up for me to believe. Religion is Man made…the universe is something different.
I don’t want to offend certain people..believe what you want and just be happy with your life in the present….
Deborah,
I couldn’t agree with you more. :-)
Thanks for the comment,
John
It is not whether God exists or not that is so bothersome. It’s that we humans are so arrogant to think we know God’s mind. On the other hand, this same arrogance is found in Atheists. They cannot, with any certainty, say that there is definitely NOT a supreme being either. What we do not know about our beginnings and how the universe started should humble us.
It is also interesting to note that you can go on over to ConvinceMe.net and debate the existance of God if you’d like.
Right now it seems to be about 50/50.
John