A while back I wrote about a video of a Muslim cleric who gave a lecture on the proper way to beat a woman. And of course we were recently reminded of the true tragedy of spousal abuse with this film of a man actually beating his wife.
Well, thanks to Adi again we have this follow up lecture from another muslim “holy” man explaining with amazingly twisted logic why women do indeed need to be beaten.
I love the way he makes claims about how many domestic disturbance calls there are in “infidel” countries – as if that makes it OK. Besides, when he’s talking about all the beatings in the US, I wonder how many are muslim? Obviously those wouldn’t even count!
I am a woman, and I have been married before, for 12 years, I am very head strong, almost dominate.I have been through alot of men, and not one of them has beaten me.My personality shines through letting them KNOW THAT I AM NOT THE ONE FOR THIS KIND OF RELATIONSHIP, you abusive men, you need to try someone who will stand up to you.Women are a painted visual of weakness to you.You all think we are just sex objects, that are taught to not fight back.I myself, was not raised this way.I will try my best to fuck a man up, if he EVER LAYS A HAND ON ME.I will NOT BE MISSUSED BY ANY OF YOU.I FUCKING DARE ONE OF YOU TO HIT ME.I DARE YOU.
I know the Qur’an may seem strange to you all who are not Muslim, but maybe I can hel give a better nderstanding of the Surah in question. When the Qur’an says Men are the protectors and maintainers of Women… It’s speaking in one case of a husband, and wife. While a Muslim wife is allowed to have a job, she is not to be forced to spend her earnings to maintain the household, that is the Husbands duty, so she can spend her earnings however she pleases. Everyone here can agree a wife wants a husband that would be able to protect his family, and provide for them. On the Issue of the Husband beating the Wife. In every translation of the holy Qur’an you find the word beat, chastise, etc. i even had a hard time coming to terms with this verse when I first converted to Islam. Anyway the term in Arabic is ‘Daraba’, and there are hundreds of uses for this word, from ‘walk in stride’, ‘strike at something’, to ‘set a clear example’. In the context of Surah 4:34 Daraba would mean to set a clear example. So when a wife’s wrongful behaviour isn’t corrected by admonishment, or brief seperation, a Husband is then told once again to bring attention back to that behaviour by admonishment, or divorce,
also thier are several Hadith where the Prophet forbids spouse abuse. In one he says ‘Could any of you beat his wife, then lie with her in the evening?’, and in another he says ‘Never beat God’s handmaidens.’
How about we just outlaw religion and all of its ridiculous “teachings” and obviously made up stories and get this whole thing over with?
Think about how much better the world would be without anyone running around accusing others of being infidels and starting holy wars over the misinterpreted words of a long dead “prophet” who claimed he could talk to an invisible man in the sky?
John I think your interpretations are too superficial. Muslims are taught to follow the excellent character of the Prophet (peace be upon him) in order to succeed in life. There are many Hadiths (narrations of his life) showing examples of his remarkable kindness and patience along with many other loving traits (mashallah). Muslims use these Hadiths as guidance for situations of everyday life. If “spousal abuse” was advocated in Islam, there would be Hadiths showing direct examples of this wouldn’t there? Thus there is more to this than what is visible on the surface. Qur’an interpretation is actually a science, not to be taken lightly. Dig deeper and analyze critically in search of truth.
Dear Zubair Shade,
I don’t agree with what you’ve wrote here.
First of all, is there such thing as the term laymuslim? Is there even such thing as a term muslim. Who are we humans to label and judge each other on our relations with God? If you wish to embrace Islam, you don’t need a worldly certificate or paper stating that ‘I am a muslim’ or ‘I am a muslim scholar’ to so call show that you are on a higher plane of existance as compared to the rest of us mortals.
Secondly, the teachings of the prophet is in the Quran. Period. His sole purpose is to convey the message from God.
4:54 Say: “Obey God, and obey the messenger.” But if they turn away, then he is only responsible for his obligation, and you are responsible for your obligations. And if you obey him, you will be guided. The messenger is only required to deliver clearly.
Majority of muslim live a life knowing that their only reference to God is through muslims scholars, people who are not only ‘knowledgeable’ but also ‘born’ from within a certain sect of the community. Nevermind whatever knowledge they have, but your claim of getting every muslim to go through ‘other books’ and other ‘people’ to understand it contradicts two major points in Islam
1) There is no intercession in Islam
2) The book (Quran) is explained in detail (and it doesn’t say you can beat your wife)
3) in the first verse/phrase itself, it has already stated ‘Only to you(God) we seek help’
To sum it up, when you go through the scholar /hadith path, you end up beating your wife. When you go through the Quran path, you will treat your wife like a princess untill either one of you dies…
I have recently discovered this blog and enjoy the articles I find here. Please allow me to add to this discussion.
“Specialisation is for insects…” is fine if you look at only simple things. But in the case of sciences, you have to specialise to be an expert. A layperson (or laymuslim) like me cannot give a qualified opinion on what is written in the Quran. This is because I do not know the background to the revelation of a specific verse. Islamic scholars study the Quran and teachings of the Prophet PBUH for many years in order to reach the level where they know when a verse was revealed to the Prophet PBUH, as well as the conditions surrounding the revelation of the verse. The Quran and the sayings of the Prophet PBUH are a science in their own right.
Good Muslim scholars are held in high esteem for the knowledge they can impart to their audiences. I have been to many lectures and know that you cannot take a Quranic verse in isolation and form your own conclusions. Many books have been written by qualified authors about the subjects raised in the Quran and are a good starting point to understanding the Quran.
Islam teaches us to seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave. This leads to your developing an understanding of the world you live in, and in so doing appreciate the Greatness of Allah who created everything from the mightiest galaxies to the tiniest insects.
I am a Pakistani Muslim & let me tell u There is no such thing in Islam.And by the way Islam was the first religion to give proper rights to women.Some people which are lost from the actual path of Islam do such things.
Oh, whew, there are people like you out there. I keep thinking that everyone in Islam green lights this kind of horror (from my point of view, anyway, speaking as a woman labelled “feminist”, and proud of it).
I know this is an “old” post, but I thought I’d add one quote I find quite fitting (and short!) :-)
“Islam is perfect, Muslims are not”.
Peace!
Two Michigan State University law students have written a scholarly article on wife beating and wife discipline in Islamic Law, posted on Cienfuegos blog at http://gimmetruth.wordpress.com/2006/06/04/discipline-as-a-means-to-marital-reconciliation/ and I have posted brief comments on my blog at Surah 4:34 The (Wife) Beatings Will Continue ’til Morale Improves.
LPF,
There is another position to be considered here. That of the Agnostic / Athiest who does not place value in the Bible or Quran other than as quality works of philosophy.
They would argue that you can believe whatever you like while you are here, so long as you do not force that belief on others or take actions as a result of your beliefs that serve to make other people’s lives miserable.
This is also the basis of the philosophy “separation of church and state”. Even Jesus said:
Clearly the intent was that we are to obey the laws of this world. And in the vast majority of countries the law does not permit beating one another. Indeed, I defy anyone here to find a single video espousing wife beating from any religion other than Islam.
I’m serious, find just one legitimate video of any other religion on this topic and I’ll create a separate post about it. But until then we must all be forced to admit that this is a uniquely Muslim characteristic.
John
….applies to both sides in this debate, and to all religions.
Who are we to castigate others? Just mere human beings. God will work his ways with us and in his own time.
Those 2 quotes are from the Bible, but I’m sure the Quran has its own versions of them.
We can watch such videos / argue vociferously / read and quote the Quran or Bible / kill each other over ideology, till kingdom come.
The sad fact is, in a large majority of societies, an improvement in women’s status will never happen.
hey john, I would not like to comment on Islam . But as far as this video goes forget Islam no religion permits and no holy book has ever mentioned tht u can beat any human or ur spouse for that matter……….
this video is very misleading …… & its very sad to know tht this thing is being practised……..
Islam does not allow any person to abuse any other person, least of all one spouse to another. The prophet said “the best of you are the best to your wives” and he also said “I can not imagine that one of you beats his wife like an animal.” Also, it is sinful for a person to strike another person such that it leaves a bruise including a man to his wife. Now how hard can you really hit someone in that case? Simply put, men to NOT have a religious license for domestic violence. I have been Muslim all my life, attended numerous sermons, and have never heard such drivel as what you’re basing your opinion of Islam on.
As for your interpretation of Quran 4:34 as you translated “Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them,” this honestly is such an obvious case of poor translation. the word you use as authority is more like a degree responsibility and the other word superior should be translated more like “to excel” so that it should read:
“Men have a degree over women because God has made one to excel other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them.”
There are numerous verses that proscribe for the equality of men and women in the eyes of God, please read the Quran as a book, not a list of quotes. I am running out of time, but I would like to invite you to email me and talk about Islam some more if you like. Take care,
Omar
verse 4.34 is men is to support, not have authority over women.
stop hijacking my religion!
Haha, sorry, I kinda know how you feel. I’m a Christian, and I hate it when people do this to my faith. It’s often alot of people who have a skewed understanding of the material that make videos like these.
OK this person has obviously been consuming a whole lot of drugs IMHO.
“Let’s say for a second that I am a handsome man (OK, I know that I’m not… but can we pretend? :-)).”
I disagree with the above statement, as, I’m sure, your wife does!!
You weirdo!
:P
John, the fact that you read the Quran, especially in another language than Arabic, doesn’t guarantee that you understand it all. Even Arabic native speakers need interpretation books (based on the prophet’s explanations and scholars’ work) to understand Quran, so let alone reading translation. I would love to ask you to just make a small research about each verse before misinterpret it too, and you’ll most likely find its background, why it came down, whom it is addressing.
Because otherwise, imagine that you read the verse that starts “and don’t drink (alcoholic drinks obviously) while praying”. ;) You’d think it’s okay to drink while not praying.
– Islam puts limits to beating, it does not allow it. — There is a difference!
– Men are not superior to women in Islam.
– The scholar in the video is misinterpreting a Quranic verse, and sure do many Muslims. That doesn’t ‘create’ the fact that ‘beating is allowed in Islam’.
I guess I made my point clear, and tried to show you how things are in Islam. Now if you don’t see things like me, or if you understand my point at least and don’t agree, I guess there is nothing more I can do.
See you!
“This person is insane and should be hanged.”
WOW! Are you serious?
Even though I, too, think his interpretation is misleading, I wouldn’t go that far to ask/wish for him to be hanged. If everyone of us does each time a disagreement arises, imagine how the world would be. No need to imagine, the world is being like that, partially, now.
I don’t agree about removing the video, it’s giving us a solid ground for discussion.
A few comments:
John
@John: I can now see 16 comments on this page, but there are more -my last one included- that I can’t see. I told you in the email you never received that I emptied my cache and refreshed this page hundreds of times but in vain. Let’s see if this continues tomorrow.
I am using FireFox by the way, and it makes your blog look all messy [or is it my old screen! :(].
@Derek Wong: You probably meant ‘the prejudices Americans have’. And believe me, beating is unpleasant to everyone, so don’t go thinking it’s acceptable in our religion, cultures or traditions.
I’m calling it a day now! See you!
Even though I can’t see the comments, and with the risk of missing some comment here or there, I’d love to answer those I could read.
@Adi: The videos suggest that the person who posted them has no clue about the topic here, that’s one thing. Now if you do know what the topic is about and still posted these videos, that’s another thing, and it doesn’t change that they were irrelevant. And if John is up to making a whole blog entry about the veil, or how Palestinians should maintain their logical thinking and calmness during bombings to save injured people (this is how I understood the video), then I’ll be glad to come in and put my two cents about these.
I guess that you lived in Israel, when you meant living in the Middle East. If that’s the case, are you sure that enables you to fully understand all the cultures, traditions and religion of all your neighbor countries? That’s actually applicable to living in any country in the ME, but Israel is even more of a special case.
I actually can’t be that affirmative about countries I am familiar with.
@MG: I personally don’t see the link between your article and this topic, but as you said, maybe as an ‘outsider’ you relate to it. I hope my comments here will help you understand even a little bit our reasoning. :)
@John: Please do not take what I say as the ultimate truth about Islam, nor myself as a representative of Muslim women, but I am telling you what I know and how I see things. I am open for corrections from people who know better about my religion, as I am open to your comments and questions. No offense taken, but you’ll understand that I may get sarcastic or irritated sometimes, and that will only enrich the discussion, I hope. ;)
– “Men are NOT superior to women” in Islam, I repeat it. If there is any controversial verse in Quran, then it’s the one you mentioned. Beating women is one of the top topics put in anti-Islamic websites.
Let me first explain that Quran is written in Arabic, and this language is so rich in meanings, that one word without vocalization can be read in many ways, thus having many meanings, so wonder how misleading can translation be sometimes. This happens with Quran too. Did you know that all Muslims around the world pray in Arabic? If that should tell you anything, it indicates the importance of understanding Quran in its original language.
So, for verse 4.34, the original verse says that men are “qawwamun” over women. The very strict translation of this word is NOT by any means ‘superior’. Another translation of that verse would be “Men are [qawwamun] over women, because Allah has given the one more than the other, and because they support them from their means.” Now what has Allah given to men more than women, that somehow gives them a plus over them you think? I personally see this as physical strenght, nothing more; and it’s this strenght that makes it an obligation in our religion (and also traditions) that men sustain women, especially that women are given the primordial role of giving birth. Once again, let’s not take the example of Western societies where women work and give birth and still sustain themselves, okay? [Even though that’s not a rare thing in our societies either.]
As you can see, this verse does not justify beating women at all, and the physical strenght I personally understand by “qawwaamun” is not enough to give any man any kind of superiority over women.
That said, I don’t see that wealth or physical strenght or anything else can give any gender the right to feel/act superior on the other, man or woman.
I don’t know you, and I am not married yet to know what a woman can do to a man in general to address some problem between them. But I so do believe that between couples, and with the intimacy a relationship such as marriage can have, both parts get to know the other and how to deal with them when problems arise. If some Muslim men tend to ‘think’ with their ‘hands’ and beat their wives, Islam is here to draw red lines for them. And I should stress on something here: “Islam is not ALLOWING beating women, it’s LIMITING it”. As in ‘the thing already existed, and was very frequent, that Islam came to put an end to it’.
And I would also love to mention that Quran came down to address issues related to the past, present and the future, we Muslims believe; and to my understanding, this very particular issue of beating concerning the past, and Islam did really solve the problem back then. But what to do to some ignorant Muslim men? [Although beating is not restricted to Muslim men alone, do we agree here?]
One more thing before I move to your other question: Never EVER judge Islam based on what Muslims do, always seek the answer in Quran and the prophet’s sayings, if you are really interested in knowing the truth. And I see this is what you are doing John, I appreciate that a lot.
I hope that what I said above explains that the position of men and women in Islam is not illustrated with this case you are giving as an example.
John, I don’t aim to show you that you are wrong, AT ALL. And I hope you respect my opinion too, and don’t judge it as ‘totally wrong’. Who said I don’t understand that there are some men out there that take women as their equals? Whatever makes you guys happy. I personally wouldn’t love to be treated as a man, and would love to be considered as a woman in everything. BUT as I might have said previously, this does not suggest any superiority or inferiority. If man#woman, that simply doesn’t meant manwoman. We are simply different, in our physical structures (!), as in our way of thinking, absolutely everything!
Should I go on explaining that a little bit more?
That will be very interesting! This discussion is actually getting larger and larger, and I might neglect some important detail or another, so your idea sounds really interesting. Comments are not practical for such discussions.
Oh my! NO! I wanted to add something about atheists and all the other non-worshiping groups, but I couldn’t rephrase the sentence. Please bear in mind that English is not my native language, it’s only my 4th. So before we get into linguistic misunderstandings, always consider the possibility that I used a word instead of another, or that I lack of vocabulary. And I know from experience that even typos can cause some catastrophes. :D [Imagine that I tell someone “say hell to your family”, meaning “hello” obviously! LOL]
Your question reminds me of a remark I forgot to add in my first comment: the scholar in the video has NO right to call non-Muslims ‘infidels’. Please refer to my request to never judge Islam based on what Muslims do/say, including scholars and myself.
I am actually reading your comment as I am replying, so HA! I just partially answered your question above. And NO, I do not consider you as an infidel, it truly didn’t even cross my mind, and I don’t even have the right to ask you what religion/non-religion you belong to. And my very own idea/principle of us being the same, is not based on the similarity between the deities we might be worshiping, but it’s based on the same (I believe) standards of good and justice that we all might have.
If a Muslim considers someone as an infidel/non-believer, they are actually committing a huge sin in Islam, because only Allah know what’s in His creatures’ hearts, we believe.
Was what you expressed at this point your own opinions/perceptions of the veil, or someone else’s words?
May I ask that we have this whole issue of the veil in another comment, or blog entries debate? I insist on discussing it, I do not want to let this detail go. :)
Because you suppose the Islamic veil is black and covers the whole body, right? Let’s get back to that later! Besides this being another whole topic (even if, au contraire :), you consider it related to beating women), it’s late in my end and I should go to bed (because I want to, not because my ‘owner’ ordered me to ;)].
That said, sorry to break the record of the longest comment on your blog ;), thanks for the ‘healthy debate’, and I will be back! [Allah willing.]
You’re welcome! :)
@JasonJ: I hope you take the time to read my answers to John, should you have any questions, I’ll be glad to answer. :)
That’s a pretty disturbing video, but it does nothing to change the opinions of many Americans. Reading the discussion in the comments is pretty interesting as well. I’m of the mind that it’s pretty outrageous that people from over there can condone such behavior. But I also think that it’s pretty despicable for people in America to beat their wives as well.
Lalla,
Given the fact that I’ve completely disabled caching at this moment, every time the page loads it is being dynamically generated. For this reason I must assume the refresh problem is on your end.
I’m not sure what Web browser you are using, but check in the settings and make sure it is set to refresh the page every time it is loaded. You may also need to clear your browser’s cache to see the updated page.
John
Sorry to be blunt here, but your comment
is to much.
Any religion, government, or group that permits beating of women, is immoral and wrong. Period.
Wow. This is what blogging is REALLY about — a dialog between people across the country and across the world.
You got to be joking me! That was too funny to be real.
Just a quick note for now: I still can’t see the comments here, so I’ll wait until I see them (hopefully tomorrow) before I come back to reply to your comment (I need to see the comments here for my own peace of mind).
My, well, you are catching all of my bugs today! :-)
I’m pretty sure that the problem you aren’t seeing the comments has to do with a page caching error on my end, so I’ve disabled the caching temporarily.
As far as the e-mail issue is concerned, thanks for letting me know as I’ve now fixed that problem! It’s been broken since I started this blog well over a year ago and no one has ever mentioned it before now. ;-)
Take care,
John
Like Adi, I very much appreciate the time and effort you have taken to respond on behalf of Muslim women. I hope you will also permit me to respond to some of your comments without taking offense.
You said:
Lalla, I’m sorry but this is not a defensible position, and it has nothing to do with cultural comparisons. I cite Quran verse 4:34:
This passage is not in question, and the justification is absurd. I pose this question to you, if there was a Muslim woman who had a PHd and earned 10 times as much as her husband, would she have authority over him because she is superior to him and spending her wealth to maintain him?
You said:
I don’t understand this comment. What do you really think you could do? Are you not going to prepare my dinner? Are you not going to do my laundry? Are you not going to look after my children? Are you going to withhold sex from me?
If you and I were married, and I have the absolute right to control you and indeed physically or emotionally torture you, I can promise you would not be able to “treat” me any way other than the manner in which I wished. You would be physically scared of me, you’d have no legal, religious or social recourse, and this would cause you to submit to my every whim. All you need do is watch that other video I referenced to see what happens when a woman is terrified of her husband.
People, married or not, should do things for one another because they want to. Not because they have to. Beatings are a form of coersion and they remove free will.
You proposed:
I’m sorry Lalla, but here you are 100% wrong. In my heart I am 100% gender neutral. I evaluate each individual person’s value on this planet according to the same set of values. But I find it interesting to understand that in your heart you cannot comprehend that men exist who actually believe this. It is not “just talk”, it is truth. Having said that, I would LOVE to better understand the “semantics” you perceive to be masking my perception of reality. In other words I welcome you to convince me that I am indeed wrong.
Hmmm… perhaps we should do an article together in which you take the position that women are not equal and I take the position that women are equal. That would be a fascinating and stimulating conversation! But I digress…
You commented:
I worship no deity. As a result of making that public statement does it diminish your respect for me? I ascribe to the belief that humanity is precious in it’s own right and does not require a supreme being to instill morality and fairness. In your mind did you just label me an “infidel”? Be honest! If so, you do not actually believe that you and I are the same.
Having said that, I do truly believe we are all the same. Men, Women, Christians, Muslims, Hindi, ad infinitum.
Finally, you postured:
Au contraire! I believe it is a symptom of the larger problem. You may label it whatever you like, but what I see is a mechanism instituted to control women. I think of it the following way:
Now, back to the equality issue. Let’s say for a second that I am a handsome man (OK, I know that I’m not… but can we pretend? :-)). If you and I were sitting down over a cup of coffee why should you get the pleasure of seeing my attractiveness, and I not get the same benefit? In other words, what right do women have to stare at and fantasize about attractive men and why don’t men have the same rights?
Anyway, thank you for sparking a healthy debate. This is the reason I run my blog and I really enjoy the rare occasions when a reader challenges me and gets me to thinking.
Take care,
John
PS – This may be the longest comment I’ve ever written on my blog. :-)
John, I can’t see my comments (original comment, and check-up comment that is), nor the ones that followed me on this page, but I received the notifications (3). I only see the first 3 comments here, Urbanist’s, Adi’s and yours.
I just sent you an email to the address the notifications are sent from (webmaster@…), but I got a failure delivery.
You can see my email, so write to me if you want me to resend that message to you.
Lalla,
Your comment was not moderated, so I’m concerned about the question. This leaves me to believe that you were unable to see your comment immediately after you left it? Could you let me know if you’re able to see these now? I’ve got some top-secret stuff in development on the blog here, and want to ensure this is not a bug.
Thanks,
John
You know, I can see how it’s a different culture, that perhaps as an outsider, I’m just not able to grasp their reasonings.. but if you don’t mind the plug, it reminds me too much of this:
http://www.theginblog.com/2007/10/artist-chains-up-dog-until-it-dies-is-this-art-or-animal-abuse/
Neither argument or “justification” really makes me say “ok, well that makes sense – carry on!”.. And both are equally as sad, especially since the women in these cultures don’t have the ability to up and leave or demand rights =/
I tried to add more interesting videos, probably they are not quite related but I just wanted to share them. Thus, this is not because I have no clue about the topic as you claimed.
Anyway, thank you for all your opinions. Even though, i am not convinced of most of it as I lived in the middle east for 20 years before living in both France and the great America. As such, I know precisely women rights in the west and east.
Thanks,
Are comments moderated here? Or my comment got somehow lost?
Well, to start off, I appreciate your curiosity about Islam, John. I’ve had a quick look on the other article about beating women, but didn’t have time to read everything, but I’d love to add a few remarks:
So the fact that you have some law in the States that forbids beating women does not change the fact that there are American wives beaten every day. And no, not all of them are married to Muslim men, I strongly believe so.
So whatever the deity you guys are worshiping, whatever your standards of good and justice are, please do concentrate on knowing our similarities rather than focusing on our differences. You’ll find out that we are living differently, but we just are the same.
That’s not a mask, it’s a veil. And let’s put that aside please, for it has not relevance in your topic.
As for the second video Adi, you’d better be crying. I don’t see anything funny about that video. When you are in a city like Ghaza, with bombings and dead/injured people all around, I don’t expect you to walk calmly, or take the time to park the ambulance properly before picking up the person injured.
I don’t see why these videos were brought up in this topic, but they show that that commentator doesn’t seem to have a clue of what’s being discussed here.
I might be back to answer more of your questions that were left in the comments of the other article.
Peace!
I nearly fell out of my chair watching those women try to eat spaghetti with that mask on their face! Terrible, and hilarious at the same time!
John
Urbanist:
Yes, woman is like an object or merchandise. I would like to invite you to watch those two saudi chicks:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0ytiXRyc0qk
I watched that video 10 times, every time I watch it, I feel like crying or laughing. And, every time I watch another video after it, which is:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YhZnsqBJ1_w
The other video shot in Gaza! Let you guys watch and have fun.
So let me get this straight … when you get an electric car you get a manual, and when you get a wife you get the Koran. So like … the wife is basically a glorified car, an object you can treat however you want. I think this guy is reading his Koran a bit selectively. Bleh.