About a week ago, a group of people filed a lawsuit in New York to prevent a cross from being erected within the World Trade Center memorial without equal opportunity for other religions who wish to have memorials there as well.
According to the lawsuit, among the 2,792 people killed in the twin towers, 31 were Muslim Americans, approximately 400 to 500 were Jewish Americans, approximately 500 were non-religious Americans, and an unknown number were Americans of other faiths. (So, about half of the people who died were not Christian.)
Additionally:
No other religious or non-religious group has been permitted a memorial.
Fox News had some discussions about this event including this one.
Fox News on the WTC Cross Lawsuit
Clearly Christians are angry. They later had Blair Scott, Communications Director for American Atheists, on a show to talk about the lawsuit and immediately the Fox News Facebook page was flooded with thousands of comments. I would link to the post, but apparently Fox removed it. Not before several comments were screen captured though.
Keep in mind, this blog post is not about whether or not the Cross or any other religious things should be allowed at the WTC Memorial, which incidentally is mostly funded with hundreds of millions of dollars of US taxpayer money from people of all religions, including non-religious people.
What it is about however is the swift, brutal and violently extreme comments that self-professed Christians made immediately following Blair Scott’s appearance to express his views on Fox TV.
Facebook Christians Advocating Death, Rape and Harm to Athiests
The list below represents just some of the comments that were captured before the content was deleted. Each commentator’s name is linked to their Facebook profile if it can be found, along with the quote attributed to that person. (If you find an inaccuracy or omission please let me know.)
Paul Altum
i say kill them all and let them see for themselves that there is God
Bob O’Connell
Shoot them. Shoot to kill.
Joe Martinez
To ALL ATHEIEST DIE AN GO TO HELL HAHA IF I COULD ID SHOOT ALL OF YOU IN THE HEAD WITH A 12GUAGE
Joseph Sneckenberg
thats easy shoot them
Casey M Jones
Shoot em. At least we know where they’re going, waste of oxygen
Mike Holeschek
Nail them to the cross then display it.
Chris Dunn
I thinly we should hang the leader of that group on the cross with nails through their hands and feet, place a crown of thorns upon their head, RAM a spear through their side all after being whipped and beaten publicly! Just so they can endure what Christ dod so they understand the sacrifice behind what that cross symbolizes.
Bob O’Connell
They’re atheists so it won’t matter if you kill them.
Tim Allison
KILL THEM.
Richard Silvia
someone show me where they live&and they will live no mere!
Raylene Ingmire
Here’s my solution, kill the group..just kidding, you figure it out. I’m so sick of people that pick and choose when they want to truly be American. They can go to Hell oh wait they will.
Sindy Clock
stupid atheists, I hope God kills them all.
Sindy Clock
I love Jesus, and the cross and if you dont, I hope someone rapes you!
Eileen Rourke
Any court or lawyer who takes this case should be hung!!!! If you look at some of the people who are atheists they are all miserable looking because they don’t have any faith in anything. You should all go live in another country. You have taken enough of my rights away.
Hans Anderson
atheist has no rights a snail has more rights than a atheist has I say throw them out to the sharks let them eat them like the ate bin laden
Michael Perri
these people are f’ing scum of the earth. can we start killing them now? few groups are filled with more hatred than atheists.
Scott Miller
IF THE CROSS OFFENDS YOU: SO SHOULD THIS COUNTRY; LEAVE BEFORE WE KILL YOU!!!!
Patrick Alley
Kill em all…let God sort em out. Guess what Atheists…
So, What Do You Think?
There have also been a lot of Tweets related to this issue, but I’m really wondering what YOU think about it?
- Christians, is it really acceptable to say, “I’m not like them. Those aren’t real Christians!” After all, the people who made these comments would say the exact same thing about you.
- Non-Christian people who identify with another religion, do you think your religion should be able to display a memorial to the believers who died alongside the Christians?
- Non-believers, is it really so important to warrant a national campaign to not allow a single Christian symbol at a monument for the dead?
I am DYING to hear what you guys think…
I think there should be a cross, also other religious and non-religious symbols.
I wonder if anybody find it ironic that these “christians” now playing the role of the biblical “establishment” who killed Jesus.
There is no real definition of a Christian because a real Christian is one who best exemplifies Christ and since we’re human there can’t be anyone perfect. We are who we are and as long as we believe that Jesus died for our sins, we’ll get to spend eternity with our Father. I was raised a Christian but I do not congregate myself with them or any organized religion because it’s people like these that give us a bad name. You don’t behave as Christians but as enemies of Christ. From the Christian point of view, one doesn’t defend Christ with arms. Christ himself forbade it.
These people disgust me and religion disgusts me,
God bless you all!
Propaganda for your religion on a site where multiple religions & non-religious people died…classy as always Christianity. What’s next? Protecting paedophiles? Oh wait….
Have you not all seen the ‘Life of Brian’ ?
wow. these people thoroughly disgust me.
first they go out and give horrifyingly gruesome death threats to people they don’t even know, and even go against the ten commandments they believe in so faithfully. What kind of hypocrite would go out and claim that we atheists have no morals and deserve to die, and yet won’t acknowledge that their religious intolerance causes wars, suffering, and all of this crap?
I am extremely offended by these people, and I hope they now understand that they wish that me, a 15 year old girl should be raped, shot, and nailed to a cross. How dare they threaten me while I only enjoy a good, intuitive debate to pursue my beliefs.
(just to add, i don’t think it’s a coincidence at all that a t shaped beam–that skyscrapers happen to contain hundreds of–landed with the heaviest part down. easy physics guys)
My personal opinion is that any religious belief is a serious sign of mental weakness in this day and age, as a religious person must now (more than any other period of human history) willfully remain ignorant about the advances of science to accomodate their own faith. Ultimately as a species we shouldn’t have to place tribal symbols on the sites of tragedies to honor the legacy of the dead.
Nevertheless, like any other realistic atheist I’ve had to accept that most people are going to need invisible sky daddy for a while longer, and there is no point stopping them lest they throw an infantile tantrum.
Christians need to be eradicated.
I think it’s remarkable how black and white all of this seems to be, how passionate people can get over a symbol, and how stupid and pointless it is in the first place.
I don’t condone any will of violence or harm to another being and anyone that does so has lost all of my respect and should not be affiliated with.
The fact that this has happened from a group of so-called Christians is just plain wrong.
My point is that if these people think that death is the worst thing that can happen, they can’t be true believers (more to the point they have no say over who should die anyway – that’s for God to decide). Furthermore, if they think the atheists are on the attack because they say “no cross memorial” it’s more about equality than anything else and clearly these people are trying to one up them with their “superior” knowledge about the human path. Which is dumb and stupid and utterly pointless.
By the way, I don’t need to reveal what faith I am, it’s not important.
What’s important is that I understand, and clearly these people don’t, that being aware of everyone’s beliefs is commonplace, and if you are to honour it with memorials for every faith, fine, otherwise shut up.
These people (the 9/11 workers and passengers) are dead. They have no say and no need to be disrespected like that.
Christians (and all other faiths): pray from home if you want. It should come from within anyway.
And because of this kind of hateful speech, I spend my summers at an Interfaith Sanctuary, trying to convince my friends that ALL Christians don’t hate us and want to kill us. Do these people actually read what they’re writing? HELLO, practice what you preach–Jesus would be sickened by such talk (and HE had a temper, so it would probably go far beyond “sickened” into a lot of broken furniture, and possibly some heads banged together.)
YES, America was founded by white Christian males. YES, God is mentioned in a great deal of the literature they wrote. YES, our money says IN GOD WE TRUST. NOWHERE does any document say, “This country was founded for occupation by Christians only. All others go to Canada or Mexico.” (Although my husband reminds me that some states were for Christians only, and Massachusetts executed several Quakers back in Colonial times.)
I personally am very spiritual: I have no problem saying “God bless America”; it’s just that maybe my God–whom at this point I call “Spirit”–is bigger than the Christian God. But I also see the viewpoint of the atheists I know, many of whom are scientists, and I don’t eschew them. (The tongue in cheek part of me just thought “Atheists are people, too!”)
Sophia. What nonsense are you uttering? America was no founded by Christians – it was invaded by Christians – and the original people of the land were massacred, their women raped, their children enslaved, their food resources destroyed and their lands forcibly acquired by these so-called Christian “Pilgrims”.
I am not opposed to Christianity at all. The fear of Hell and God seems to be the only thing that keeps psychopaths like this from raping and killing everyone they disagree with. Some people really NEED that forced fear based morality. Without it, no one would be safe.
Why can’t a memorial honoring the PEOPLE that died be errected, instead of a monument honoring the RELIGIONS of people?
So just because someone was not Christian/Muslim/Insert whatever you want here, people from other religions don’t mourn their loss or want them to be remembered?
Why do we have to box ourselves off from others so often?
Peace, Love and UNITY!
This country was founded on religious freedom. Most of the people who came here did so to get away from religious intolerance by their countries churches. So for those people to say that if your not a Christian than you don’t know what it is to be an American just makes them historically ignorant and makes them actually sound “UnAmerican”. As for putting up a cross at the Twin Tower Memorial, why should it be about religion? It should be about the people who died their, about their families, about the diversity of this country, about the sadness that followed after that day, and about how one event brought everyone of different religions, different cultures, different skin colors, of different upbringings, and of different economic backgrounds to one moment of unity. How we all no matter where we were in the world all felt the same horror, anger, and sadness at what we saw happen that day. Why take such a sad moment and make it about personal agendas? Also on a side note those people who wrote those things and call themselves Christians obviously never read the words Jesus said. If they had read Jesus’ words or about his life in the Bible they would know that everything they said was against those teachings. I am ashamed of any person who would judge someone by their religious belief. What someone chooses to believe is their choice and their “God” given right. They have no right to push it on anyone else and they have the right to worship in any manner that suits them and doesn’t cause harm to others. That is what our Forefathers wanted for this country. So believe in God, don’t believe in God, believe in Allah, believe in Buddha, believe in Mickey Mouse, or Superman it doesn’t matter since you are in the UNITED States of America not in some country where religion rules our government.
The world once saw the attempted extermination of an entire group of people based on religion, we call it the Holocaust. Killing athiests because they are athiest would be very similar, with such extreme comments, makes you think about how history repeats itself.
You know, if there’s one thing that I can easily define the human species in terms of beliefs is that most of you will turn on a dime the moment that you get pissed off. This is what happened: Christian group believes that the 9/11 attacks was an attack from Islam, and it was an “Islam-Middle East VS Christianity-United States”, then with that builds a memorial to show their belief. The rest of the world sees this and calls out on the sign because they are tired of these Christian groups thinking that they can do whatever they want. With this and a bit of television drama we have ourselves a shit ton of people, including graduates, fathers, and hell- even a grandmother post comments aiming at a group that’s been ostracized in the United States for a long time: Atheism, since the number of them that actually support other groups that wishes to establish religious, sexual, cultural, and ethnically equality and the leader of that certain group that filed the suit happens to be an Atheist.
The funniest thing to this problem is that due to the propaganda from since the beginning of the Cold War era, atheism was anything that had a relation to ‘communism’ was suppressed, which means even religious equality was suppressed in a manner since atheism was correlated with so-called ‘satanism’, ‘pagan’ *(which I do have to say that pagan isn’t really a religion, it’s a name used to denote a religion that is other than Christianity, which means that with this word, even Scientology is considered “Pagan”), baby killing, and evil. I’m guessing from some of these comments; I see that they’ll know where some of their crap had came from.
This episode is just plain sad. Since the beginning of our species, we can’t seem to get past our own skin colors and cultures!! An even crueler aspect of our cultures is that we’ve always reject or ostracize an outsider over such things. Our species has even made slave of each other over this shit- then justify it with more hypocritical doctrine. Multiple “holocausts” have happened over this.
So with how I feel about the Abrahamic faiths, or any faith or ideology that had “divinely justified” violence? I feel that they aren’t something that’s worth getting into, let alone scream out death threats about. I wouldn’t want to be a mindless sheep of a human being that’ll react over something so unstable as a religious or hell, even a nonreligious belief.
So what should we do? Well… that I’m not really sure, if anything if you come across something that you see that is controversial, observe it, research it, think about it, peer-review it, and formulate your own judgement over it; just don’t feed into the fire and fuel more crap that nobody really needs and don’t give someone crap just because they believe in something that you don’t like or not having a belief in what you like.
I don’t think they should allow the cross. Religion is such a tough issue. And it wasn’t just Christians who died, so if there were 400 atheists, you shouldn’t he able to memorialize them as Christian. They should do something more simple, like a statue of the earth. It would show that people from everywhere was effected by it. People who died were from all over, they were all kinds of religions, and they should be honored for that, and a simple globe would he proper respect as it reminds that it wasn’t just America that was affected, or Christians, ot was everyone.
Am I the only one who sees the real point here. Yes there are a lot of fundamental rights and religious debates that we can all scream about till we are blue in the face, but check this out. Think of all religious symbols, everyone you can think of and you tell me if a single one is as geometrically simple as a cross. This structure is a cross section of a support beam, the only thing that gives it power, that makes it a Cross is YOU! So i honestly don’t understand what the point is, the Atheists are just looking for a reason to assert themselves because they feel that they are abused, and the “Christians” need to go back and decide if they are “Christians” as in followers of Christ, who taught NOTHING but forgiveness and tolerance, or if they are a HEBREW in following the old testament and not the teaching of Jesus Christ. So many people hide behind their faith and their lack of faith and its just screwed up! Religion was never supposed to be about who is better then whom and the subjugation of those who do not believe EXACTLY what you do,… it is meant to be a WAY of life, a way of bettering yourself and those around you,… and no that does NOT mean forcing them to be a part of your religion, it just means respect, tolerance, and peace. With all the issues in the world i really don’t understand why this ONE is such a big deal. I believe what i believe and if you want to tell me your personal beliefs i will listen and never tell you that you are wrong, at most I will tell you that that belief doesn’t work for me, and then you can show me respect and accept that and move on.
This just spreads more hate rather than solves anything. At least choose a more honest title like: “A handful of crazy people who call themselves Christians advocate killing atheists.” But there are always crazy people who talk about killing other people, and so it isn’t news; is barely note-worthy. There have always been jerks within humanity, and they don’t always justify their actions by hi-jacking religion. This essay is far too reactionary to be at all helpful.
I’m 17 years old, and an Atheist. I was brought up in the methodist church growing up with my mother. She died when I was 7. I don’t express anger towards christians because of the beliefs they hold. My brother is atheist as well. We respect the people who hold different values than we do and are as American as can be. I am training to be a united states marine and could care less for these people who believe we don’t know what sacrifice is. I lost a sister at the age 4 due to suffocation on the bus ride to her first day at school. My biological father is an abusive drunk and a christian. If any “heretics” should die it should be the people who blacken the name for good christians. These people are the very persons they wish to expel from this world. I reserve pity to only those who recognize their shortcomings in life, religious or otherwise. I have no sympathy for deviled martyrs. I don’t see a problem with erecting a memorial for the christian peoples, but other religions must be taken into consideration. Not all of us are out to hate and destroy christian beliefs, I go about my day not thinking anything of this matter. Because the only word I care about is my mother’s and my love’s. My mother only wishes for us to be happy, and if there is a god, then he should smile upon us for he good deeds we have committed instead of focusing on the harsh. Judging equally, a fair trial, this is what God bases his decision among the people to enter Heaven, and also what our country’s court system is based on. This is only one of many christian values put into a non-christian situation. Everyone needs to calm down and sit back and think about these words, there is more to lifw than advocating beliefs, ideology, and views. It involves the understanding of why you are here–to help the neighbors, friends, and family in our lives. Just sit back and appreciate what means most to you in life, you’d be surprised what message you get.
Typical pact of Bullheaded pricks! If you don’t believe as I do not only are you wrong. Then they want to kill you for beliefs that don’t support them! It’s a wonder they don’t think the earth is flat too!
I’m sure jesus would be very proud of the lot of them. Oh wait – he wouldn’t. I love the way christians so rarely act like christians. And then of course there is the rewriting of the history of this nation, and their refusal to grasp the constitution, bill of rights, and long history of US supreme court case law.
sigh.
Credit to FOX for removing the vile comments immediately – are other sites as quick to chastise leftist hatred towards conservatives?
Um, hate to tell you Patrick, but Fox is one of the SLOWEST to take down stuff–they moce quicker when a lot of attention is paid from everybody being so shocked at the vitriol and hate. Every songle time there’s an article about Obama, every comment is racist, along with death threats.
The worst of the bunch are The Daily Caller, World Net Daily, Brietbart, and Fox Nation–but Fox Nation has some of the MOST vile comments. Every day!
All of this hatred and violence towards another is just another example of how skewed the societal beliefs of today have become. I’m not ‘old and wizened’ by any means, but anyone can easily see that we, as a country, are shredding apart every single thing that made us great. I myself am not Christian, I am not Muslim, nor am I an Atheist. I consider myself a very spiritualistic type of person, believing in a higher power, and honoring the things laid out before us that we survive on. If you want to lay a tribute to anything resembling 9/11, forget any religious symbol whatsoever. Erect a wall. Just a simple wall with the names of those unfortunate souls who perished that day. Top the wall with an American flag. Give people something tangible that they can all identify with. Forget crying about religions or anything else like that. We need to unite under the only symbol in this country that should ever matter, our flag.
We fought long and hard to earn that flag, but it seems every day people forget that. Everyone takes for granted the things we have, without any care of what it is like without them. I am not saying religions are a fallacy, not by any means. People need their beliefs to keep faith and motivate them. What people do not need, is to force upon others their own beliefs as if they were law.
The more this country tears itself apart, the less we are united and the easier we can fall. Keep this in mind. Although our democratic government is flawed, it still is a whole lot better than the alternative. Be thankful for what we have as Americans. As someone, who I cannot remember, said before: “Forget the love of power, and strive to live each day with the power of love.”
Bet these guys made Jesus blush. Seriously.
If they’re such hardcore Christians and God supposedly loves them, you’d think that God would have given them some proper grammatical skills.
I understand the desire of Christians to erect a cross at ground zero. This is a deeply meaningful symbol for them and I’m assuming that in their eyes, and according to their tradition, it’s the proper way to memorialize those who died. I mention this because I genuinely mean no disrespect when I say that this is inappropriate in spite of their good intentions. We maintain a separation of church and state in this country to ensure everyone the right to religious freedom and it is this freedom that must be preserved in the wake of a religiously motivated attack. I would point to the Pearl Harbor memorial as an excellent example of a neutral yet powerful remembrance of a tragic event.
As to the hateful comments by Christians on Facebook. It seems to me that entities like Fox News have done an excellent job of amplifying the most extreme elements of the right, increasing their numbers, their fanaticism, and their hate. Obviously calling for the murder of another person is wrong and would be condemned by most Christians but what’s more disturbing to me is the way the voices of these extremists have been blasted through a media echo chamber that encourages such shrill responses.
Oh, and for the record (since it’s relevant to the discussion), I consider myself an agnostic.
I live on Halibut Point Road, in Sitka, Alaska. only, I’m not an atheist. I’m a pagan. that’s even worse, according to your bible. you know…that book you’re supposed to blindly obey? so do it. you’re SUPPOSED to not suffer me to live. so come kill me. any takers, find me on FB, I’ll give you the street address. that’s SITKA, ALASKA, you enlightened followers of christ. I’ll be up here sacrificing puppies and kittens in your names.
People seem to be misunderstanding the whole issue here.
The lawsuit was filed by an atheist organisation, but *it is not about atheism*. The complaint is not against religion. The complaint is not that we’re offended or feel left out.
The complaint is that a Christian symbol, displayed exclusively in a public area endorsed and partially funded by the government, is in violation of the US Constitution.
This is about church/state separation and the equality of citizens.
If other religious symbols were allowed, it’d still be less than ideal but acceptable.
If this whole thing was happening on private property, there’d be no complaints at all.
TRUE CHRISTIANS would not advocate killing or harming anyone. Our God is a God of love and the 10 Commandments say it all. HE does not want us to kill anyone. HE wants us to love our enemies! It is not our place to judge. DO NOT LISTEN to those CLAIMING to be Christians and saying such horrific things!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I’d say that all these people should be reported for written threats and investigated. Best to err on the side of caution. All I can think about is my younger brother, who’s an atheist, and how I’d feel if such violent threats were leveled against him…
Oh, my favorite comment was the one saying there are few groups more hateful than atheists, after just stating that they’re scum and asking if he could kill them. Ironic.
As a Christian, I find this embarrassing. I feel that these people are going against their own scriptures by showing hatred and talking about killing (two things that Jesus spoke heavily against). I hope you don’t think that all Christians are like this. I think these people can be easily thought of as the modern day equivalent of the hypocrites that Jesus spoke of.
Thought this was like Onion News or something, I am so thankful that I live in Britain. We get taught that religion breeds stupidity, but I never thought that such stupidity is allowed to be aired on television?
What happen to the separation of state and church? Why is the tax payers money going to a religious article to begin with? who cares about who’s religion…
Wow, this doesn’t surprise me at all! I know more hateful Christians than any other religion. The thing that really ticks me off is taxpayer dollars are going to the memorial, hello seperation of church and state??? There are plenty of churches that could donate to this cause if it’s that important to them!
Where do these people come from? I’m an atheist myself, but I have many Christian friends, not one of whom is like this. My friends all support my right to think as I choose. Maybe it’s the anonymity of the message board and the presence of like-minded individuals that brings out this kind of hatred.
As a Christian, I am horrified at the comments made about killing and raping atheists. Christ Himself would turn his back on such hatred. That is not Christ-like behavior. Those people should be ashamed of themselves. As for religious monuments, I have no thoughts for or against them. Everyone should be free to celebrate their religion/beliefs/lack of/etc without worrying about what others are doing. It makes me sad that these types of things make national news when there are so many more important things to worry about. Very sad to see so much hate coming from brothers and sisters of Christ. :(
This is just pathetic.Christians killing people of other faiths is exactly what happened during the crusades.I can’t even express how angry i am about this situation…
Being a Christian myself I will say those who were talking like they were talking about killing and maiming nonbelievers may say they are Christian but their words show them not to be. Thou shall not kill. Judge not lest yea be judged. These aren’t suggestions, they are supposed to be ways of life.
Now to a point I never see anything posted on Fb when other groups go nuts. What about the three girls killed in Canada by their Muslim father for an honor killing? Or the one in America who fled the country after killing his two daughters? Honestly all I ever seem to see is people hating on Christians for the stupid ones who get in the news. How many charities and homeless shelters bennifit from local churches, some of them not even requiring those who get help to even do anything but show up with their hands out?
I personal think like at any grave site there should be allowed any religious group who was effected to place a marker there.
I am a Christian and I am sickened by so many of the comments here. You’re hypocrites and morons . Keep your opinions to yourselves if they r not genuinely loving, understanding and Christian. You obviously have no insight into your alleged religion.
They’re not real christians.
Not because I’m not like them – but because christ isn’t.
It’s time for Christians and all those with religion to grow up and stop believing in fairy tales…
Not to mention your retarded religious cause war after war. Greedy theists.
This is atrocious. I cannot BELIEVE these people have the audacity to call themselves Christians.
I think the lawsuit is right, but i also think that christian’s wanting to kill the atheists is wrong. the message im getting there is if you dont believe in god you should die just to be proved wrong before being plunged into hell. Thats ridiculous! to all you who said “just kill ’em” let me ask you, should the ones who believe in the goddess, the Buddha , Allah, Ganesha, or any other deity die to? do we as humans not have the right to worship who or what ever we believe in? I am not a christian, but i do believe in what Jesus said when he said do unto others as ye wish done unto you. more than just christians died there in the tower attacks so there should be the right to have their respective religious icons standing right next to the cross you want to build. the audacity these Christians who posted these things have, is disrespectful to not only themselves but to their faith, their families and to the victims & their families. people need to grow up and see the bigger picture here.
This whole thing is completely overwrought. Its a public place. How about have an American memorial with a flag and call it good? We all after all are in a melting pot, whether Fox News or their violence mongering viewers want to acknowledge that. If you want to celebrate your family member’s heritage or religion put it on their own family memorial. Its almost as if its no different than a gang tagging their territory…or a dog spraying a tree for that matter. The people who died don’t care; they’re dead. I certainly don’t care what religion any of the victims were. I care that they were mass murdered. Honor the lives lost, in much the same way we do our veterans; with class and leave it at that. Please go pee on your own lawn. Oh and lastly, this country is in serious need of therapy and anger management.
I’ll quote something I just read, from the new testament book of Titus, chapter 3, verses 1 – 2: “Remind your people to submit to rulers and authorities, to obey them, and to be ready to do good in every way. Tell them not to speak evil of anyone, but be peaceful and friendly, and always show a gentle attitude toward everyone.”
I’m a Christian. Are they? I can’t judge their spiritual condition, but I can discern this: If they are Christians, they are pretty bad ones.
No one religion should be placed above another. The people who spout hate & intolerance in Christ’s name completely miss the intention of how He wanted us to behave, which was to be kind, compassionate, forgiving and loving toward one another. They should build a memorial that reflects all faiths, whether it be Pagan, Wiccan, Muslim, Buddhist, Shinto, Hindu, Jewish, or any other faith. We’re a nation of many beliefs, races, and cultures and we should reflect that in our ceremonies and remembrances of others.
Doesn’t your constitution guarantee freedom of religion? Doesn’t that apply to all religions and give you the choice to not follow a religion? I am sick of Christians feeling that they are being prosecuted and attacked! They are clearly in the position of power and have been for centuries. Maybe it is time for them (and others) to realize that we all have the right to believe what we believe!
Why do there have to be religious symbols of any sort? Why not just what originally was done, pictures and flowers and candles and teddy bears and such? Even the non-religious have customs of that sort, but as soon as a cross goes up, there’s controversy. Christ did not die so that the towers could fall, but it sure sounds like it….. I’m Wiccan, btw.
Religion is not going anywhere for a long time and every society and people have resorted to violence to protect their way of life, even the shoalin monks learned martial arts to defend themselves way back in the day.
You have every right to feel whatever you want about religion, but picking a fight is picking a fight and if athiests and agnostics want change they cannot wage a war against religion to do it, it has to be done peacefully and through tolerance.
A religion cannot feel pain, bashing a religion is bashing people and bigotry which is in large part the format by which anti-religious types use will only serve to back people into a corner and spark the flames of action that the largely liberal base athiests/agnostics come from will be incapable of dealing with.
Nothing wrong with an athiest or non believer but anti-religiousness is a force that seeks to antagonize a sleeping giant one which if pushed far enough will stop using words all together to make its points.
As i said picking a fight is picking a fight, don’t cry when someone says they might punch you in the face, don’t sit behind your computer and stop being mindful of what you say because no one can touch you through your lcd.
Bigotry toward anybody divides nations, keep on this path you will tear america apart.
As i said before religion is not going anywhere, so in the meantime the question is how are you going to live with it? at war or at peace.
Um…Many posts here say not to take that Facebook page seriously. Yet one poster checked and noticed there were 8,000 threats on that page. If there were one or two people saying “let’s kill all atheists,” maybe it would be a black humor issue. But the number 8,000 shows how much hatred there is out there.
Fortunately, the percentage of atheists in America is growing by leaps and bounds. In 1990 there were 900,000 atheists in America (that included me). In 2008 there were 1.6 million, almost double. The number of people who claim no religion is far higher, somewhere in the 40 million figure, or 15% of the U.S. population in 2008. These people would quickly be sympathetic to us atheists and enough pretend Christians (those who act it but are not) would change to “without a religion” or “atheist” category and side with us, if ever there is a smear campaign against us. The numbers of people calling themselves Christian – well that’s dropping yearly. Also note that 25% of Americans between 18 and 25 consider themselves atheists. There is a group called MASH, a group for atheists and humanists actively serving in the US military. Finally, college atheist organizations are growing fast.
I think the vocal threatening Christians are acting out their frustrations just like the Muslim terrorists, to see that religion is dying and being replaced by reason. It’s growing pains. It will pass.
Oh and I saw a blog that seems to be run by Christians that commented on what the 8,000 Facebook people did. One of the comments on the blog were blaming the atheists for this. That’s like blaming the victims. Most comments were denying that those 8,000 facebook people were real Christians.
Someone in this blog mentioned “cherry picking” from the Bible. It got me to think this: The Bible still has the bad stuff in it. Stoning people, killing of one’s first son, and so on. I have yet to see people, Christian or non-Christian, advocate replacing the Bible by getting rid of all the violence and intolerance toward innocent people, including toward non-Christians. So back to Cherry picking…If a Christian claims his interpretation is peaceful today, what guarantee is there that his interpretation won’t change tomorrow to the stoning, raping, plundering, and murdering that is also promoted in the Bible? There are no guarantees. In essence, every religion is based on whim, on subjectivism. That’s the real red danger people of reason should be very aware of.
So my conclusion is that I’m not one bit impressed by those “peaceful” Christians who say they would not harm any non-Christian. We atheists are in no less danger from Christians than we are from Muslim terrorists.
Don’t get so worked up by the comments on the Fox “news” Facebook page . It’s just some people trolling: It’s obvious.
Breathe. Let it go.
Spending any more time on this nonsense is pure folly.
I’m a Christian, but I cannot see how anyone can think damning people to hell is Christian at all. God himself doesn’t do that. That’s not really the point here though. The point is the law is the law. Our country was founded partly on the search for religious freedom. All peoples and religions affected by the events of 9/11 should be represented at any memorial.
These people saying “kill, kill, kill” are not christians, they are narrow minded people that think their way is the only way. They would NEVER let someone else choose for them the way they would believe but here they are with their hatred…………..there are many different kinds of christians but as far as i know there is no christian religion that avacates killing as a way to convert people except maybe the Taliban.
If you do not believe in “god” thats fine, I believe I am a good cristian person. I don’t go to church, I don’t give 10% of my income to a building (church) or some person trying to brainwash me into it. However, when i get up in the mornings i can look at myself in the mirror and know that no matter what I believe i am a good person.
holding out a helping hand, excepting people for who they are and not what they are, not stealing, lying, raising my daughter to follow these beliefs and caring about life in general, and living to the very best of my ability makes me a christian.
I think it is a sad day and says alot about how wrong things are going in the u.s., around the world for that matter, when people think that to kill someone because they don’t believe the way they think they should. This is susposed to be the land of freedom, started because of religion purceacation in England.
People better stand up and take notice because this is truly the beginnings of a witch hunt!
One last thought, ” a house divided will surly fall” . Quit tearing down your own house!
Pray for your enemies as God tells us too . Pray that the atheists find God. Live the Christ like life and then there wouldn’t be so much violence in the world …Make people want to be more Christlike by your kindness and Turn them over to God to deal with
Both sides are in the wrong. Clearly, as a nation we don’t deserve the 9/11 memorial at all. It’s unfortunate for the innocent victims who deserve to be remembered, but it is probably best if we just scrap the whole idea and build a mall instead. All Americans like malls, right?
I’m a Christian and am terribly horrified of this tragedy. All my earnest studying and efforts to learn more about God only reveals the loving nature. We should ones to reach out out of love not of hate.
I am absolutely shocked at these comments. I am not Christian, but I support people in living within their faith. I do not support people using their faith to vilify others’ faiths. To say let’s kill them, I hope you get raped, let’s nail them up and all the other things said is just so awful. Essentially, they are saying ‘because you don’t believe what I believe you deserve to die, and there you will see I was right and you will be sorry’. The only thing is, I don’t think these Christians are right. I can’t imagine any God saying, ‘Oh you were kind to people but you didnt’ believe in God, so you will go to hell.. but oh hello, you killed someone who didn’t believe in God, thank you, well done, welcome and you will now stay with me forever’.. It makes no sense to me…
Only in America. Europe, and I mean ALL of Europe, is free of this fascistic idiocy. Let’s hope it stays that way.
Every sociopolitical or religious faction has it’s share of trash. Every faith, every philosophy, every political movement, and, I suspect, most book clubs. Shall we hold ALL atheists accountable for every thing some atheist someshere said, at any point in history? Shall now blame all moslems for 9/11? Using the asshats commenting on that facebook page as a broad brush with which to tar ALL christians is no different.
If this heaven thing is real and as great as all the happy-pappy Christians say it is, and this God guy exists (despite an utter lack of evidence spanning some 6000 years beyond the tall tales of a bunch of primitive sheep herders who stoned their own brothers and sisters over differences of opinion) and is so ready to make their soul (which they can’t quantify in any way, shape matter or form) a place in this heaven place (for which there is no proof what-so-ever) then why are so many Christians trying so hard to stay alive in the first place? If it’s as great as you say you’d think they would be signing up for Bungee jumping, sky diving, clamoring for more holy wars, etc.
“That which has no quantifiable or objective effect upon reality has no bearing or relevance to that reality” – me
By whatever name they call themselves they are of the same group that acted in violence on September 11th. They see the world in terms of US v THEM and feel justified in wishing harm on another for a different world view. To say it was Muslims or Afghans or Pakistanis that acted on 9/11 is inaccurate. To say it was intolerant haters that wish harm on innocent people based on there being member of another group is accurate. They are in direct conflict with the values that make this land great. If we want to keep our freedom, we must be willing to defend the rights and freedom of others with whom we strongly disagree. America is great because of it’s inclusion not exclusion.
On the subject of the cross, I do not claim it as a religious symbol but as the steel beam cross emerged as an icon of the tragedy, I would not mind seeing it as part of the memorial.
i “love” christians. give them time and they’ll put their dirty foot right in their filthy mouth. their b$llshit faith has NO basis in morality. if Jesus were here they’d hang his ass up again for NOT being christian.
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:21
try and take THAT out of context you hypocrite bastards. the spirit of the Father is NOT in you, so you’re bastard demon children. who would Christ kill? you fake f$cks.
I feel, as a multicultural nation, we should stop doing things that cause division. Erecting a cross puts one set of beliefs above another. Religion, especially, should be a private thing. Americans so often go wrong by trying to force their religion onto others. Religious beliefs should not be legislated, they should be adhered to and lived by in a person’s daily life. (Legislating beliefs goes against the verse in the Bible about dealing with the log in your own eye before trying to remove the speck from your brother’s.) AND..Religious monuments in places like ground zero are unnecessary and divisive, so why do it? As one poster above stated, we should erect something that lists the names of the victims. I imagine it to look like the walls in Arlington Cemetery, except I would have a slot next to each name where flowers and/or notes could be placed.
As for the ugliness that spewed forth from Christians, it doesn’t surprise me. It’s one of the reasons I abandoned that faith years ago. I know two Christians who give their faith a good name. The rest are less compassionate and far more ugly than any atheist I’ve ever met.
Please accept my apology on behalf of these CINO’s (Christians in name only). Anyone who truly has a relationship with Jesus Christ would never advocate this kind of venomous rhetoric, much less destruction of human life to prove their own personal doctrine. God loves EVERY ONE of His creations even if they haven’t come to know Him. I pray that all who read this will be drawn by the Father into a relationship with His Holy, LOVING, Gracious Son.
Whether those comments originated from people who are or claim to be Christian or not, I do not know. It seems highly unlikely that they did so while also thinking on a verse that should be familiar to a christian: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” The references ‘the world’ and ‘whosoever’ encompass every human being.
The attempt to coerce removal of an extant symbol of hope that survived the 9/11 attacks may recall feelings about the four plane crashes, lives lost and lives affected that day–not an excuse for the comments’ tone, but perhaps an explanation.
The so-called “Christians” really offend and hurt me. I consider myself a Christian, and to see other Christians talking so hatefully to non-believers really saddens me. This is why so many people look down upon Christianity. I’m sure everyone who posted is “perfect” and has no flaws.
“Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” John 8:7
The point of the memorial is not to represent Christianity; it is to stand as a memorial for those who were lost in such a tragic event. I understand why people were upset about a cross being used at the site. There is not reason one faith should be represented.
I’m an Atheist in the UK. I’m quite shocked by alot of the comments made to this article towards those who are different to ‘Christian’ by supposedly Christians. I personally think that if they’re going to put up a monument for the deaths they should consider all view points of religion by those who were killed. This way it is a true representation of who they were. Saying that it is less patriotic for singling one religion out is ignorant to the truth. America may well be a majorly Christian biased country but the Constitution itself was made so that law wasn’t dictated by the church. So that all Americans are treated fairly and with human-rights. I’m not saying don’t have a Christian icon to be erected. If there was a debate in London at Kings Cross similar to this, I wouldn’t care less if they put a huge cross outside the trainstation. I think people are playing too much on the possibility of offending a certain group of people if they put up a conflicting view-point. Which lead to hate towards that group. Some are even demented enough to commit hate crime. I think it would be a better image and message to allow all symbols of every religion or non-religion to be linked together. Not only would it represent every person who died on 9/11 but it would also symbolize a unity amongst the American people who had put beliefs aside in such terrible times.
Lovely bunch of violent thugs
That said, I doubt they’re all trolls. I got the sense she(?) was responding to the general tenor of the page and trying to be ironic about it, which got lost.
Yeah, Sindy Clock’s definitely a troll profile — I sent a message trying to be all let’s-disarm-the-Christian saying “I’m an atheist, but I don’t hope you get raped, peace and love,” to which she responded, “I’m an atheist too.”
Gee…and here I thought it is the Islamo-fascists who are dangerous!
As an atheist, after reading this and seeing the comments these good wholesome Christians left, I felt sick to my stomach. We have rights as HUMAN BEINGS. Just because I won’t play make believe with certain groups, doesn’t mean I or anyone for that matter deserves to die. In America we have the right to practice whatever belief we choose. Hitler would be proud of these people who call themselves Christians. I’d call them a step away from becoming extremist.
Anyone who advocates killing someone else (be they an individual or a group or a nationality or a race or anything), because they do not agree with the beliefs of said individual or group is wrong.
I don’t care what faith they claim to be or not be, or what God they claim to serve.
They’re wrong.
That’s really all that needs to be said.
People will use whatever they can to hide behind to safely deliver their hate. I thought religion was supposed to help people to hold themselves to a higher standard of behavior. These people will use whatever means they can to justify their own hatred. And I am better Jesus would be none to thrilled by those who claim to follow him.
“I am pretty sure Jesus” is what I meant.
am i the only one who finds the legitimacy of some of those facebook posts hard to believe?
some of the commentors are clearly just trolls- looking to rile up readers. take a look at sindy clock’s facebook profile, for example.
no denying there are hateful people in the world but i propose that thinking those 8000 posts represent in any way the earnest sentiment of most christians is stretching the limits of common sense belief.
I consider myself to be Christian culturally, although I have a very literal interpretation of the Bible, but I don’t see how these people can claim to be Christians. How can you tell a Christian? I wonder what Jesus himself has to say about that.
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
Yet, the level of hate from so-called Christians towards gays, Muslims, and atheists is the most un-Christian thing I’ve ever seen. I understand the argument other people are making in the comments that we can’t judge who’s a Christian, except Jesus told us exactly how we can determine who’s a Christian and who’s not. Love, not hate.
The only people who need public executions are idiot fanatics who needlessly call for public executions.
Ha! are they all from Alabama or just the first few? Lol. I like Sindy Clock’s attitude. Just rape anyone who doesn’t agree with you
I’m an atheist and yes I think its very important! If it was all church funded I wouldn’t care but when the government pays for something like this it should represent all the people who are paying for it. Its not fair to everyone to decided that the cross gets to be the symbol even if was randomly found. Plus if you have a christian symbol your making it look like you want to start a holy war.
In short include everyone or don’t include anyone
Ah, to feel so welcome in this country as an atheist. I’m actually pretty sure these people are NOT a minority. I have run into these types countless number of times, and while they usually don’t go as far as death threats because they are talking to me directly, I’ve definitely been told this nation is a CHRISTIAN nation and if I don’t like it I should leave the country. It doesn’t seem to matter that my ancestors came over in the 1600’s…
Beyond belief is the fact that these people are the local equivalent of the people who brought down the World Trade Center. As a college lit professor, I have decided to spend a lot more time in my classes on the concept of irony.
The “Christian” commentators obviously did not read their Bibles, much less their Constitution regarding the limits of free speech. Death threats can lead to a knock at your door and some pricey court time. Take names. Look them up. Send mail to law enforcement agencies. Subpoena the Fox “News” server (which took the post down “only” after 8000 death threats). Fight back. This has started for one poster in Canada. http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/SciTech/20110811/montreal-police-internet-complaints-110811/
My fellow atheists here have said enough about the topic, I think. I send them support and love and news that we are the fastest growing “religious” demographic in the US. I realize that this makes people who have formed tribes based on such things as whether or not Christ went to hell to redeem Adam and Eve, or how to properly baptize a child, uneasy. I hope that these are the death throes of a pointless superstition.
I don’t see why a cross shouldn’t be erected at the site of the World Trade Center memorial. Millions of religious Americans take hope and relief from the cross and I, an atheist, don’t see why said cross should not be erected. I don’t see why other religious icons shouldn’t be placed within the memorial either if all Americans are entitled to draw comfort and hope from the memorial site.
I don’t think that it’s fair to attack atheists; I don’t think it’s fair to attack Christians. Aggressive Christians would do well to remember that not everyone believes in the concepts of Heaven, Hell and divine justice; not everyone is fearful of God and not everyone fears retribution or worries about the final resting place of their ‘souls’. Aggressive atheists would do well to remember that, as we have no evidence to prove/disprove the existence of God, Heaven and Hell it is unfair to claim that God does not exist and that Heaven and Hell are figments of the imagination.
I’m not versed in the Bible, but I don’t think that God (if he exists) would be comfortable with the threats dealt by Christians on the FOX News Facebook site and would not wish rape upon peaceful atheists. I don’t think that any compassionate atheist would seek to prevent Christians (and other religious peoples) from taking solace in the cross, especially when one considers just how many Christians and religious people were killed by the perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks.
And I think that Muslims should be able to draw comfort, hope and take solace in faith at the memorial site, too.
I’d like to think that these people are just trolling and tey really don’t mean it… In case that these people are serious, Atheistic God be mercyful cuz these guys are freaking crazy, suicide bomber crazy
I my self do not subscribe to any religion. I believe that it is wrong for a cross to be put up at the memorial, and yet have other religious presences not even be considered for addition to the site. I certainly sympathize with these people behind the lawsuit, but on the other hand, I believe that it is wrong to sue just to prevent this cross from being erected.
I’m an Atheist. As long as nobody is telling any particular faith that they can’t erect a religious symbol at the site, I’m not offended by it. I’m not on any kind of anti-religious crusade here — people can believe or disbelieve whatever they please, as long as they don’t drag me into it.
That said, if this tone doesn’t let up, people like the ones making these comments are going to end up in a lynch mob.
Don’t be taken in. These were all trolls, trying to smear Christians, so they could shove their bigoted anti-Christian agenda down our throats, against the steel beam cross in the 9/11 memorial. Try looking them up on FB. They are as phoney as $3 bills.
I looked up some and they are not commenting any positive Christian principles, associations or scripture encouragement. My last post was rejected here because of span. Shezzz! technology. Was none.
Michael Perri clearly wins the cognitive dissonance hat of the day.
‘No one’s more hateful then them…let’s brutally murder them (in the spirit of love?)’
Come get me, delirious Christian extremists – I’ll send you to whatever God you like.
If you’re advocating killing someone because they don’t agree with your religious point of view. Then you are just as bad as those that attacked us the first time in ’93 and then again ’01. Also …Even just thinking with that much hate, not love, will take you out of fellowship with God. You better prey you don’t die right then, with that hate in your heart…..how would God great you at the gate?
There is some big generalization here. You are saying that all christians want to kill athiest? If not please clarify. You are also not debating anything factual but relating some people to a whole religion. There are many many times where people take versus and the meaning on the Bible out of context. Does that mean that they are right?
One question. Do any athiest then associate all muslims to the same belief that they want to kill everyone because the people who bombed the towers were “muslim”? It is the same generalization you are making here. Do all religions belief that athiest want to kill people because a few athiest murdered some people?
There are extremist in any belief system in the world. Have christians killed, have muslims killed, have athiest killed, have hindus raped? You could come up with multiple instances for all. Relating one to the whole or is completely not logical. Instead you have to dive into the actual belief system backed up by the bible, because there lies the answers which hopefully are not taking out of context.
Christians, is it really acceptable to say, “I’m not like them. Those aren’t real Christians!†After all, the people who made these comments would say the exact same thing about you.
– This is quite foolish to say. That is like saying well a few athiest said they have no moral beliefs and they dont care if their family dies or they kill there family. So I will turn the question around, If christians wrote an article and say woaaahhhh did you see that. Please respond and dont say these people are not real athiest, because they would say the same thing about you. The question is a loaded gun in a sense. So the athiest that kill are directly related to those who dont kill. Which is completely wrong. Please debate or as I would rather put it discuss instead of generalizing. This just turns into emotional yelling instead of factual discussion.
and just realized i spelled atheist wrong every time, i know my spelling is not good, but that was bad, apologies.
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It has been reported that there were over 8000 death threats posted on this Facebook page. Sorry Christians, that’s way too many. We’re going to have to consider you a violent religion and possibly stop you from building any churches within a few blocks of Ground Zero.
This story sounds like all the death threats following the cartoon depiction of Mohammed being printed. Salman Rushdie?
Religion is like a p-e-n-i-s. It’s fine to have one. It’s fine to be proud of it. But please don’t whip it out and start waving it around on the street.
Religion is like a penis. It’s fine to have one. It’s fine to be proud of it. But please don’t whip it out and start waving it around on the street.
If this wasn’t so sadly serious, I’d think those posts were something taken from straight from http://www.landoverbaptist.org .
I was raised Catholic but left that religion when I was old enough to see it for the sham it is (imo). I am now a Wiccan and have my own beliefs but still have enough respect for those of different religious beliefs than mine, as long as it doesn’t hurt me or mine. Lucky for me I live in California and don’t get bothered as much as I would were I to live in certain states. It truly scares me to see the kind of mentality some of these ‘christians’ possess. It terrifies me to think my daughters may at one point in their lives come across hateful bigots like these. I remember enough from my catholic days to know full well this is not what their god is all about. While my Wiccan Rede is to ‘harm none’, I would have no hesitation in protecting my loved ones, by whatever means necessary, from these monsters. Funny, I am ‘a heathen’ but possess more morality than them.
As to the original questions from the OP: No, I do not believe any religious symbol should be displayed at this site, even if they were to pay for it. To do so would be to disregard those victims that did not believe in any one diety. If this is truly a memorial for the victims do not bring religion into it at all since these people were killed because of religion. Instead, let us display a picture of them along with their name or something of the sort.
I was raised by Christian parents, and as much as I have come to see that religion in an overall negative light, I do not believe these example reflect the beliefs of most American Christians. That said, from my experience, most American Christian would probably not understand why having the cross, and the cross alone, marking that sight is unfair or inappropriate. As a “non-believer,” I do believe that this is important enough to justify a national campaign. In a time when religion and politics are blended through campaign contributions and by candidates who can’t seem to separate their beliefs from their obligations to the American public, the so-called moral majority needs to be reminded that this country is not, by constitutional definition, a Christian country. Tax payers should not pay for this religious icon to be displayed if it is not part of a memorial that recognizes all the faiths of the fallen in equal esteem.
One thing I am tired of hearing is the argument that people like this are not “real” christians. I’m sorry, but anyone who calls themselves a christian, is a real christian. And these christians are no different from any others, even those who denounce them. You all believe in the same book. You all cherry pick which words in that book should be followed, even if you are all in disagreement about which words in that book should be followed. Even though you all disagree with each other, you are all convince that YOUR interpretation is the right interpretation. Step outside the box and look in. All christians are the same. They all live by different interpretations of the same book, but tell each other with different interpretations that they have it wrong. Like the guy who predicted the rapture, but had every other denomination tell him he had it wrong, because the rapture was REALLY going to happen the way THEY believed… I know you are all incapable of looking at yourselves subjectively, but try.
Stop referring to christians who disagree with your brand as ‘not real christians’.
You are spot on!
I find this all to be quite disgusting from both sides. As an aithiest I am dissapointed that (like many christians) I am being missrepresented by a group of people who think that no other way than their own is right. lasting peace and social justice can only stem from mutual understanding. whatever the symbol may be at any memorial to a tragic event in out history, it is eaily ignorable. just like christianity. when it comes to these fundimentalist christians who spout off angrily when they feel threatened and use their ideology to bully others and attempt blanket the world with their rhetoric, i think they should look in the mirror and see how they have deviated from positive christian ideals and are allowing this campaign of fear and cunsumption administered by our joke of a government to fuel anger and static between people when we should all recognize our similarities and band together as a people in the effort to dilude this hatred. there is enough darkness in the world. why add to it?
Absolutely, there should be no cross there. And these “Christians” that advocate killing atheists only prove the point. Let’s get down to brass tacks: They shit a brick when someone wanted to put a Muslim-run community center blocks away from ground zero. Ridiculous. Let’s leave religion out of it; that’s what got us in the mess in the first place.